making SC's profitable?

how do you guys play your sc's? do you call raises, limp only, initiate raising to drive out crappy drawing hands?

i am having trouble making these guys profitable, and primarily use them to ward off boredom and for more action on my premiums.

please elaborate with your general strategies...

I use to 3bet them in and out of position, i have changed that though, i never 3bet SC's anymore, i call with them in position, unless the pfr is a solid player with a big pfr range coz that kills my implied odds...i love calling pfr's with SC's when the guy has stats of like 30/8 or lower, i feel like my implied odds are pretty big with players like this, plus they are pretty easy to float as well if i miss.

Also, i raise 65s+ from from like UTG1 sometimes UTG, and 54s in CO and sometimes UTG1, i play 6max.

Originally Posted by dan

I use to 3bet them in and out of position, i have changed that though, i never 3bet SC's anymore, i call with them in position, unless the pfr is a solid player with a big pfr range coz that kills my implied odds...i love calling pfr's with SC's when the guy has stats of like 30/8 or lower, i feel like my implied odds are pretty big with players like this, plus they are pretty easy to float as well if i miss.

Also, i raise 65s+ from from like UTG1 sometimes UTG, and 54s in CO and sometimes UTG1, i play 6max.

you 3 bet SCs? lol. that's aggressive. was it profitable?
if someone is raising pf after you've already made a raise they have to have quite a strong range. isn't it a bit risky 3 betting?
if you bet 4xbb. villain raises to 12xbb. if you're going to 3 bet you'll be raising to 36xbb. at this point you are basically commited to the pot if he continues to play on. you'll both have over 1/3 of your stacks in the pot. (assuming both full stacked with 100xbb).

this is a bit too aggressive isn't it?

pokerroomace, "3bet" is actually the raise after a pfr, like the 12bb bet after a 4bb pfr...even though I agree it makes more sense to just call it a 2bet

chopper, imo it's hard to say how to make SC profitable without talking about other typical poker stuff like stack sizes/reads etc (obvious answer is "it depends.."), but I'll post an example I think I played a SC well, and explain my thoughts (nothing complex really, but if anyone thinks I could've played better let me know)..


Hand #38092569-4887 at Lewisville (No Limit Hold'em)
Started at 03/Jan/07 10:10:54

TrippelA111 is at seat 0 with $100.90.
MRG825 is at seat 1 with $100.60.
FrolicinBear is at seat 2 with $116.
Threapwood is at seat 3 with $88.10.
deedubs is at seat 4 with $59.10.
Hero is at seat 5 with $153.15.
The button is at seat 5.

TrippelA111 posts the small blind of $.50.
MRG825 posts the big blind of $1.

TrippelA111: -- --
MRG825: -- --
FrolicinBear: -- --
Threapwood: -- --
deedubs: -- --
Hero: :Tc:

Pre-flop:

FrolicinBear raises to $3.50. Threapwood folds.
deedubs folds. Hero calls. TrippelA111 folds.
MRG825 calls.


alright so we both have decent size stacks, I'm on the button, and I have good reads, basically an ideal spot.
villain is a tag with a wide range to raise pre flop, and cbets almost every time, but has a very tight range to continue oop in a big pot. I have a solid tag image too so he's likely to respect me post flop.

I sometimes would just reraise, especially if we had deeper stacks, but this time called to attempt to take the pot on the flop or turn a lot of the time, and some of the time winning a huge pot if we both hit big.
sometimes I'll lose a smallish pot but believe I have a big edge in the long-run with position on a predicable opponent.

Flop (board: 3h 6c Ac):

MRG825 checks. FrolicinBear bets $7. Hero
raises to $21. MRG825 folds. FrolicinBear folds.
Hero is returned $14 (uncalled).

so as planned he bet with whatever he raised pre with (maybe 15% of hands), and I made a threatening raise and he folds almost everything but TPGK on this flop. my draw is a just a bonus in case he calls. if it was a dry board I might've floated his cbet instead.

Hand #38092569-4887 Summary:

$1.25 is raked from a pot of $25.
Hero wins $23.75.
----------------------------------------------------------------

I got such a mouthful from the villain for this hand. Would anyone have played it differently? Should I have folded in the BB after a raiser and a caller?

Game #2953882963: Hold'em NL (£0.15/£0.25) - 2007/01/01 - 17:02:08 (DST)
Table "Arcturus" Seat 4 is the button.
Seat 1: MangaGav (£8 in chips)
Seat 2: Jdhogg (£11.05 in chips)
Seat 3: Aradax22 (£41.35 in chips)
Seat 4: Sterob001 (£20 in chips)
Seat 5: 2hi4me2cu (£26.15 in chips)
Seat 6: Zerbombt (£27.50 in chips)
2hi4me2cu: posts small blind £0.15
Zerbombt: posts big blind £0.25
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to Zerbombt [6s 5s]
MangaGav: folds
Jdhogg: folds
Aradax22: raises to £1.25
Sterob001: calls £1.25
2hi4me2cu: folds
Zerbombt: calls £1
----- FLOP ----- [5d 6c 3s]
Zerbombt: checks
Aradax22: bets £3.50
Sterob001: folds
Zerbombt: raises to £9.50
Aradax22: raises to £40.10 and is all-in
Zerbombt: is all-in £16.75
Returned uncalled bets £13.85 to Aradax22
----- TURN ----- [5d 6c 3s][Td]
----- RIVER ----- [5d 6c 3s Td][2d]
----- SHOW DOWN -----
Aradax22: shows [Ah As] (A Pair of Aces, Ten high)
Zerbombt: shows [6s 5s] (Two Pairs, Sixes and Fives, Ten high)
Zerbombt collected £53.60 from Main pot

Dont forget one of the single biggest factors. Stack size. Implied odds generally wont be there in a lot of MTT situations.

benny,

did you raise him on the flop w/ your draw to "see if he would fold?" werent you worried he had the A after his pf raise? and if he called you, what would you do then if the turn missed?

i dont understand, i guess, the playing a HU pot w/ a sc. you NEVER get the correct odds to draw profitably (in NL), and implied odds are very tough to figure when a Tag wont pay off the flush when it hits. you obviously know more than me, but it seems you got a bit lucky that he didnt have the A. i think you lose this hand the majority of the time, and when you call a raise and raise again, as a semi-bluff, on the flop, if you dont win the pot right there, you really spewed some chips, imo. but maybe thats why i dont play them profitably. i dont mean to be critical, when i asked for advice, but please elaborate on WHY you would think MY response is wrong. thanks.

biondino,

what would you have done with villain's push if you had more than 16 pounds? say, if you had HIM covered with 45 pounds?

i guess in a 6max game you have to "go to stacks" when you flop 2 pair against a pfraise? but again, calling a pf raise in a HU situation cannot make these profitable in the long run, can it? you just dont hit 2 pair that often on the flop, or complete that big draw against AA...when AA is pushing and shoving to bet you out, do you? seems that (in NL again) you are forced to "chase" your sc's too much to make them a profitable holding.

any theories on why you SHOULD chase with a sc in a 2-3 way pot while facing psb's?

Originally Posted by biondino

I got such a mouthful from the villain for this hand. Would anyone have played it differently? Should I have folded in the BB after a raiser and a caller?

Game #2953882963: Hold'em NL (£0.15/£0.25) - 2007/01/01 - 17:02:08 (DST)
Table "Arcturus" Seat 4 is the button.
Seat 1: MangaGav (£8 in chips)
Seat 2: Jdhogg (£11.05 in chips)
Seat 3: Aradax22 (£41.35 in chips)
Seat 4: Sterob001 (£20 in chips)
Seat 5: 2hi4me2cu (£26.15 in chips)
Seat 6: Zerbombt (£27.50 in chips)
2hi4me2cu: posts small blind £0.15
Zerbombt: posts big blind £0.25
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to Zerbombt [6s 5s]
MangaGav: folds
Jdhogg: folds
Aradax22: raises to £1.25
Sterob001: calls £1.25
2hi4me2cu: folds
Zerbombt: calls £1
----- FLOP ----- [5d 6c 3s]
Zerbombt: checks
Aradax22: bets £3.50
Sterob001: folds
Zerbombt: raises to £9.50
Aradax22: raises to £40.10 and is all-in
Zerbombt: is all-in £16.75
Returned uncalled bets £13.85 to Aradax22
----- TURN ----- [5d 6c 3s][Td]
----- RIVER ----- [5d 6c 3s Td][2d]
----- SHOW DOWN -----
Aradax22: shows [Ah As] (A Pair of Aces, Ten high)
Zerbombt: shows [6s 5s] (Two Pairs, Sixes and Fives, Ten high)
Zerbombt collected £53.60 from Main pot

Playing what's generally a drawing hand OOP sucks but the preflop call is fine, esp. with the extra caller. I'd fold if it was reraised though.

I generally raise 87s+ from MP2 and later, bet my draws and usually c-bet heads-up flops (depending on board and opp). But SCs are losers for me the last 10K hands, so I'm starting to scale back the pre-flop aggression, esp in EP and MP.

this is how i "typically" play them. but, i figure this hand plays itself.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($32.50)
SB ($26.50)
Hero ($17.60)
UTG ($24.25)
MP1 ($25)
MP2 ($37.10)
CO ($7.45)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5, 6.
1 fold, MP1 calls $0.25, 1 fold, CO calls $0.25, 2 folds, Hero checks.

Flop: ($0.85) 4, 8, 3 (3 players)
Hero bets $0.75, MP1 calls $0.75, CO calls $0.75.

Turn: ($3.10) 2 (3 players)
Hero bets $1, MP1 raises to $2.5, CO folds, Hero raises to $7, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: $12.60

its hard for me to smooth call the turn raise here with the flush draw out there. any two overcards that are suited are likely to bet this turn. and a cardinal rule of mine at 25 NL is to bet when i hit, and RARELY slow play. when i slowplay, it seems i get sucked out on and only have myself to blame.

isn't the pf call with 65s OOP slightly loose blondihno?
i like the way the rest of the hand went. it is very unlikely that he has you beat there.

what is "floating" exactly? is it just calling and waiting to bet later?

i like the reraise with the flush draw on bennys hand. but playing flush draws aggressively at lower stakes just doesn't seem to work. i think you are much better playing flush draws passively at lower stakes. i don't bet my flush draws aggressively that often but the last few times i have done (and i have had 9-15 outs) i'm getting called by TP or a weak overpair. and i never seem to hit my flushes when they call and i end up stacking off. i don't do it that much though so i've just had some bad variance.

thanks for clearing up what a 3bet is. i've thought for a long time that it was a 4bet.

Originally Posted by Chopper

its hard for me to smooth call the turn raise here with the flush draw out there. any two overcards that are suited are likely to bet this turn. and a cardinal rule of mine at 25 NL is to bet when i hit, and RARELY slow play. when i slowplay, it seems i get sucked out on and only have myself to blame.

i agree with this. and i would play it just like you. maybe it's playing a bit too scared. but you want to get more money into the pot anyway so i think it's a good play. especially with the huge no. of fish at the 25NL tables.

I *think*, and this is really just a guess - that SCs are hard to play at small (50-100) stakes because you don't really have the deception value you think you do against a typical player. There are lots of loose players who don't even care what you have, and there are lots of paranoid weak/tight players who are going to fold when the 3rd suited card hits anyway.

Also, low SCs like 45s and 67s *should* be considerably less profitable than QJs and T9s because:
1) fewer nut straights, lower flushies
2) better 1-pair, 2-pair hands occasionally

I wonder if we should fold more lower SCs unless we think we have particularly high implied odds (excellent position, villian raised with very low PFR, high aggro, in addition to necessary stack)

benny,

did you raise him on the flop w/ your draw to "see if he would fold?" werent you worried he had the A after his pf raise? and if he called you, what would you do then if the turn missed?

that's not exactly how I looked at it...I was comparing what his range would be to call my flop raise vs what range he was betting.

the read I posted was pretty fundamental to making that play. vs a more passive, unpredictable, or loose opponent it probably would be a bad move. I'll try to show some math behind it though...

lets say his range was: 22+,ATs+,KJs+,QJs,A9o+,KJo+
when I raise, I think he won't continue without at least AJ+ and sets, sometimes better draws. His range just shrank from 15% to 4 or 5%.

the numbers don't need to be exact, but the point is as long he will fold about 1/2 of the time then raising was +ev, and looking at all the hands he raises other than AJ+, it looks very +ev, especially if it gets me action later on.

oh ya, if he called I am probably shutting down without making my hand, but I might get a free card with the button..

Originally Posted by Chopper

this is how i "typically" play them. but, i figure this hand plays itself.

Tank then bet more on the turn, $3, who cares if he folds you need to build the pot.

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Originally Posted by Chopper

this is how i "typically" play them. but, i figure this hand plays itself.

Tank then bet more on the turn, $3, who cares if he folds you need to build the pot.

i didnt think, initially, that a psb on the turn would get any action since the board was so low and rainbowed given the pf action (what i should have thought was i had 3 callers to a flop bet, a psb should string one along). i figured with a 1/3 bet i was begging A8o, 67, etc to call one more smallish bet. once i saw interest, however, i figured he may have a set, or maybe A5. i figure those hands cant release, but the flush draw like 8c9c or Ac4c has a redraw on me...so i figured it better to end it right there and not give the chance to suckout, as well as thinking that if he doesnt fold my RR, we are getting it all in right here...which is what i wanted to happen before the club falls on the river.

Originally Posted by benny999

benny,

did you raise him on the flop w/ your draw to "see if he would fold?" werent you worried he had the A after his pf raise? and if he called you, what would you do then if the turn missed?

that's not exactly how I looked at it...I was comparing what his range would be to call my flop raise vs what range he was betting.

the read I posted was pretty fundamental to making that play. vs a more passive, unpredictable, or loose opponent it probably would be a bad move. I'll try to show some math behind it though...

lets say his range was: 22+,ATs+,KJs+,QJs,A9o+,KJo+
when I raise, I think he won't continue without at least AJ+ and sets, sometimes better draws. His range just shrank from 15% to 4 or 5%.

the numbers don't need to be exact, but the point is as long he will fold about 1/2 of the time then raising was +ev, and looking at all the hands he raises other than AJ+, it looks very +ev, especially if it gets me action later on.

oh ya, if he called I am probably shutting down without making my hand, but I might get a free card with the button..

this is the kind of math i need to "learn" how to compute. any articles, links, etc you would recommend?

I don't waste much time putting people on hands at 25NL. The important thing is that you have the NUTZ YO it doesn't matter what they have it's worse than yours. Having a $3 bet called twice is better than a $1 bet being called 5 times. A8, 34 is coming along for the ride regardless. T8 may think and call it's hard to say sometimes.

so, go to the old rule of: When it comes to micros, rarely, if ever bluff, and play your cards...not the player.

where/what level do you start to focus on reads?

Originally Posted by swiggidy

I don't waste much time putting people on hands at 25NL.

I disagree with swig here. I don't think there's any stake too low that you shouldn't be practicing hand-reading. The fact that low-stakes players are bad and their "standard" plays vary widely doesn't mean that they're unpredictable. In fact, I think low stakes players are often more consistent (and therefore predictable, once you have a read) than higher-stakes players. My advice at these stakes is don't put too much stock in a read that isn't from experience with that particular player and almost never make big laydowns.

I do agree with swig's overall points though: a read isn't very important in this hand, and betting big hands hard is hugely +EV in the long run.

I always fold SCs from EP, and most often from MP unless the players acting after are passive. With drawing hands you have much worse implied odds OOP. For this reason I will almost never call a raise OOP.

If I decide to play my SCs and there is no raise before me I will raise them. Unless there are about 3 or more limpers, in which case I might also limp.

I will almost always call a preflop minraise by a full stack from any position.

I will usually only call a proper preflop raise if I have position and another caller.

Postflop, I will often bet or raise strong draws from position. That's how I play other strong hands which are vulnerable to draws, like sets, so it disguises my hand a little to help the implied odds and possibly wins it there. It also will probably give a free card on the turn against some good hands and players looking to check/raise. If I'm given the free card I'll usually take it.

Reads are important in the sense: weak/tight, solid/agro, calling station. Or: min-raises solid hands, loves to bluff river, donk bets turn when 2 pair hits, etc.

I only use specific hands, or a tight range when I look at what beats me and how likely it is they hold those cards vs how vulnerable my hand is. Say "I have AQ and I'm only afraid of AK or a draw" so if he's tight I'll be more cautious. If he's a donk I ignore AK and play like I have the nuts. Sometimes I'm wrong, but more often I'm not.

I've only been successful up to 50NL so take that FWIW.

{EDIT: zook posted while I was writing. My first post was dissing hand reading which wasn't the intent. I just meant it's so hard to narrow bad players ranges that thinking "hmm, he has A8 so he'll call $2 but not $3" isn't worth the energy. Bad players ranges are so wide that any respectable hand I generally assume is good, then try to decide if stacking off or a moderately priced showdown is best, and adjust my play off of that

I do think in terms of "that's how he plays TP", or "this looks like he's scared" so maybe I am just doing my hand reading sideways}

Chopper - I don't like your bet 1/3rd pot then raise on turn in your hand. If you are going to bet small and fish for a raise, just call it, and hope he puts more money in on the river. If another club hits, well, try to not get a/i. If you want to b3b it, bet a real amount, or even an overbet. Unless you bluff raise like this as well...

I don't think slowplaying here is a huge mistake... the pot is kind of small and he probably doesn't have anything... you risk the b/d flush, but again, the pot isn't so big you can't fold, and he might catch 2pair/trips/idiot end on the river.

Originally Posted by Chopper

so, go to the old rule of: When it comes to micros, rarely, if ever bluff, and play your cards...not the player.

where/what level do you start to focus on reads?

i think that there is a place for bluffing at $25NL.
especially cbetting.

i gotta thank you guys for what has turned into the "give chopper free advice" post. this HAS helped a lot, as i have seen most of you guys posting in here before and respect your opinions.

i think i may be, in part, starting to "turn a corner" of sorts in my play. lately, i have been getting much more aggressive, and while overall i have not been profitable over my last 14 k hands (i'm down like 4 BB/100), before that i have had a ton of success (up 5 BB's/ 100 over 40k hands at 25 and 50 and a little 100).

part of the "new" aggression is arrogance, part is trying to adjust to the fact that the "fish" seem smarter these days...since about summer (before, but worse, since US ban). they seem a little tighter pre-flop and less likely to stick it in w/o moderately solid holdings (you dont seem to double up as frequently w/ TPTK anymore). and part of the aggro influence was about 8k hands at 6max...WOW, did i get some bad habits there.

but anyway, i want to say one more thing...

lots of us seem to hit a "bad run" and blame variance frequently. lately, i've seen more of us say ..."with a little bad play"... but the fact remains, i have made some HORRID plays recently, like this one.

its off the subject of sc's, but since i have you guys' attention please let me know if this is as bad as i think it was upon review. boy did i get greedy. i just want you guys to tell me if there was ANY justification for this, as i know i was taking a HUGE gamble here.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP2 ($25)
MP3 ($44.60)
CO ($15.45)
Hero ($19.40)
SB ($13.20)
BB ($37.95)
UTG ($7.25)
UTG+1 ($48.05)
MP1 ($26.15)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8, 8. MP2 posts a blind of $0.25. MP3 posts a blind of $0.35.
3 folds, MP2 (poster) checks, MP3 (poster) checks, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.25, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($1.35) 8, 6, 4 (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($1.35) 9 (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets $1, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, Hero calls $1, SB folds.

River: ($3.35) Q (2 players)
BB bets $3, Hero raises to $8, BB raises to $36.7, Hero calls $10.15 (All-In).

Final Pot: $58.20

this is the type of stuff i used to call variance because when i run well, it holds up. but when i run NORMAL, i get killed here with this stuff, and should not make this mistake again.

was it ok to check the flop, and wait to hammer the turn? or should i have just bet the flop from the start?

thanks

Easy raise preflop. Bet the flop b/c it's draw heavy.

Raise pre-flop because there is 5BB in the pot already with no-one who's displayed and affection for their hand. If that was 2 limpers, limping 88 from LP is ok.

OMG, bet the flop. How are you going to get someone's stack if the pot is only $1. You want stacks!!! People will not fold a flush draw to a PSB that is 3-4bb. Fire away. From your position they may interpret it as a steal attempt.

Bet like someone has a hand, if everyone folds so be it.

honestly, this was me getting VERY greedy. i have tendencies towards FPS (fancy play syndrome), as do we all, just not THIS bad, i imagine.

one of the hardest things for me to do is push my strong hands when i cant get no...

AA and KK stole the blinds for me today, twice for KK. and i hit 2 sets. the first one was a little like this one, but didnt pay because i bet out like i normally do. however, on this one i snapped out of frustration, and decided to slow play...for some weird reason.

and it turned a modest winning day into a slightly losing day...in ONE flippin' hand. and this is one of the rare times i felt "tilted." so, at least i did the right thing from there and LEFT THE TABLE.

i didnt expect any sympathy, as this hand deserves none, but thanks for the kind remarks.

one question. why raise 88 pf on a full ring game? i thought you limp, "set hunt" and punish the flop when the set comes in (i know i didnt do that here). with 2 limpers, technically, i read you should fold, although i cannot see how.

but, how much to raise? 3X, 4X or 4X + limpers? if you raise to $1.50, doesnt it cost more (long term) when you miss, as some of the time you are only limping or calling smaller raises?

Originally Posted by Chopper

one question. why raise 88 pf on a full ring game? i thought you limp, "set hunt" and punish the flop when the set comes in (i know i didnt do that here). with 2 limpers, technically, i read you should fold, although i cannot see how.

Raise because you're in position and it gives you more than a 1 in ~9 chance to win money on the hand. Bad players will call your raise and won't hit the flop, and you'll take a decent pot down with a c-bet. Plus if you do hit your set, the pot is already built a little, making it easier to play for stacks. I'm sure there are more good reasons...

Originally Posted by Chopper

but, how much to raise? 3X, 4X or 4X + limpers? if you raise to $1.50, doesnt it cost more (long term) when you miss, as some of the time you are only limping or calling smaller raises?

However much you normally raise. "Standard" is 4xbb+1bb/limper, so to $3 in this case.

makes sense, but sometimes it is unwise to cbet, right? and the more callers to your raise, the more unwise it is to cbet, right? for example, a lone A hits a rainbow flop...cbet. however, what if the flop comes Ah Th 4c, do you still cbet an opponent you have no reads on?

what are your criteria?

Originally Posted by Chopper

makes sense, but sometimes it is unwise to cbet, right? and the more callers to your raise, the more unwise it is to cbet, right? for example, a lone A hits a rainbow flop...cbet. however, what if the flop comes Ah Th 4c, do you still cbet an opponent you have no reads on?

what are your criteria?

Now it's time to play pokah!!!

The point is you have a chance to win the pot by raising pre-flop, with a good hand mind you. You get 1, maybe 2 calles, now you have a chance to win by cbetting the flop. How often you cbet depends on the flop, and the players, this would be a long post in itself. The point is, before you see the turn card you have 2 chances to win the pot. If you limp you'll only win when you hit your set or the flop is all rags.

chance to win irregardless of the cards >> chance to win because you have the best hand

I usually play my SC's like this:


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($132.05)
Hero ($193.80)
UTG ($369.35)
MP ($116.50)
Button ($105.55)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5, 6.
UTG raises to $4, 3 folds, Hero calls $3.

Flop: ($8.50) 9, Q, A (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $9, Hero raises to $27, UTG calls $18.

Turn: ($62.50) 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $45, UTG calls $45.

River: ($152.50) T (2 players)
Hero bets $117.8 (All-In), UTG calls $117.80.

Final Pot: $388.10

Results in white below:
Hero has 5c 6c (flush, ace high).
UTG has Ah Qd (two pair, aces and queens).
Outcome: Hero wins $388.10.

jager,

that looked like a fun hand, and i dont know many that can get away from 2 pair, especially top two. but i WOULD slow down when you c/r, then have to think about folding when you keep pushing hard into a three-club flop. i dont know w/o playing with you to have any read/image to go by, you may have had me, too.

swigg,

i dont mean to sound like a complete noob, as i have decent experience w/ cbetting, etc. but, sometimes we need some reassurance that we are not "growing stupider...duh" by playing with the donks that tend to give us bad habits. it's like staying sober around a bunch of drunks...you need to stop and look at yourself "from the outside" every so often to make sure you arent becoming "one of them."

my challenge is that i keep falling back into my "comfort zone"...of being a BIG FRIGGIN' NIT!!

thanks again for the help.

Also, low SCs like 45s and 67s *should* be considerably less profitable than QJs and T9s because:
...
2) better 1-pair, 2-pair hands occasionally

Bear in mind, though, lower cards are more likely live, and I will often bet any pair I make on a low flop against a pre-flop raiser. with QJ or similar, you're much more likely to be dominated but you have a "better" hand in an absolute sense, which makes it harder to get away from.

Originally Posted by biondino

Bear in mind, though, lower cards are more likely live

Can you explain why this is?

Thanks

Originally Posted by uscheese

Originally Posted by biondino

Bear in mind, though, lower cards are more likely live

Can you explain why this is?

Thanks

Players are more likely to hold KQ rather than K5, or JT rather than J6.

Originally Posted by Ash256

Originally Posted by uscheese

Originally Posted by biondino

Bear in mind, though, lower cards are more likely live

Can you explain why this is?

Thanks

Players are more likely to hold KQ rather than K5, or JT rather than J6.

Meaning that the lower cards are more likely to have the other cards to complete a str8 (or pairs) still in the deck?

Originally Posted by uscheese

Originally Posted by Ash256

Originally Posted by uscheese

Originally Posted by biondino

Bear in mind, though, lower cards are more likely live

Can you explain why this is?

Thanks

Players are more likely to hold KQ rather than K5, or JT rather than J6.

Meaning that the lower cards are more likely to have the other cards to complete a str8 (or pairs) still in the deck?

no. it means that when you hit TP on the flop with 56 it is unlikely that someone has top pair with a better kicker. if you flop top pair with QJ it is more likely that he has TP with a better kicker (than in the hand where you had 56). he is more likely to have seen the flop with a jack in his hand than a 5 in his hand. if he had a 5 in his hand he probably would have folded it preflop.

Originally Posted by pokerroomace

Originally Posted by uscheese

Originally Posted by Ash256

Originally Posted by uscheese

Originally Posted by biondino

Bear in mind, though, lower cards are more likely live

Can you explain why this is?

Thanks

Players are more likely to hold KQ rather than K5, or JT rather than J6.

Meaning that the lower cards are more likely to have the other cards to complete a str8 (or pairs) still in the deck?

no. it means that when you hit TP on the flop with 56 it is unlikely that someone has top pair with a better kicker. if you flop top pair with QJ it is more likely that he has TP with a better kicker (than in the hand where you had 56). he is more likely to have seen the flop with a jack in his hand than a 5 in his hand. if he had a 5 in his hand he probably would have folded it preflop.

Ahhh I see....thanks

Originally Posted by Chopper

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP2 ($25)
MP3 ($44.60)
CO ($15.45)
Hero ($19.40)
SB ($13.20)
BB ($37.95)
UTG ($7.25)
UTG+1 ($48.05)
MP1 ($26.15)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8, 8. MP2 posts a blind of $0.25. MP3 posts a blind of $0.35.
3 folds, MP2 (poster) checks, MP3 (poster) checks, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.25, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($1.35) 8, 6, 4 (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($1.35) 9 (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets $1, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, Hero calls $1, SB folds.

River: ($3.35) Q (2 players)
BB bets $3, Hero raises to $8, BB raises to $36.7, Hero calls $10.15 (All-In).

Final Pot: $58.20

this is the type of stuff i used to call variance because when i run well, it holds up. but when i run NORMAL, i get killed here with this stuff, and should not make this mistake again.

was it ok to check the flop, and wait to hammer the turn? or should i have just bet the flop from the start?

thanks

bet preflop to $1.5 (4xbb+1xbb per limper). you have a good chance to take the pot now. and you have a good chance to take the pot on the flop if you do get 1 or 2 limpers since you are in position. if you get 2 callers and the flop comes AKQs it probably isn't a good idea to cbet if hits checked to you. (maybe you could try a 1/3 pot bet - but that might be a bit loose)
you should bet between 2/3 pot to pot on the flop. very bad play by checking.
you should make a raise on the turn. approximately pot-sized. i think getting all your chips in on the river is fine. but you really did mess up the hand.

I disagree about raising preflop with middle pairs. Yes, you are ahead. But your set gets the most value when it hits in a multiway pot, especially if you hit the rare but stackable full house you will want someone else to have trips. By isolating people you have a lower chance someone wants to play with you when your set does hit. I want to play pairs for stacks to hit sets and so I agree with your raise on the flop, but I have made a lot more money lately calling with pairs to get into multi way pots to get paid.

one problem with lower connectors also is that you have a higher chance of losing to higher flushes and straights. Don't play for stacks with the "idiot end" of a straight or with a low flush unless your read is pristine. Also, beware of re-raising high bets on the river with an idiot end or low flush, as often the only caller has you beat.

FWIW, in the hand history Chopper posted, I'd even raise 22. I open-raise all pp's from all positions and raise lower pp's after limpers from LP. Stats on TT-22 from 12k hands at 100NL full-ring:



Obv I won multiple stacks with TT and 66 and lost a couple with 77. Lost a bunch of c-bets with 55 for some reason. Small sample I know, but maybe food for thought...

whatever its worth, 50NL, I'm assuming you are posting 100NL?

LOL. I take it back, you're doing pretty well just limping/calling with them too Why'd you leave out 33?

Raise SCs and flop trips. No one will believe you.

no reason, I must just not know how to use Poker Tracker well yet, couldnt get the window to max...I prolly sound like a newb.

you dont want to see my Ax stats or sc stats...teach me please! any good links or rules for that?

Originally Posted by mixchange

no reason, I must just not know how to use Poker Tracker well yet, couldnt get the window to max...I prolly sound like a newb.

you dont want to see my Ax stats or sc stats...teach me please! any good links or rules for that?

maybe the reason u do well with pockets is because of your loose image from other hands like SCs and Ax.
do Ax or Axs? Ax shouldn't really be a winner. only AT+ are decent/good. i dont know stats tho so dont shout at me n show me sum1 making a good profit with A2o.

zook. you raise pocket pairs a lot.
zook and mixchange - you both see a very high number of flops with pocket pairs.
im surprised at these high stats.
i actually fold low pockets in early position. utg i think ill fold 66-22. and ill only start playing all of them in midposition.
ill raise pockets when in mid to late position if there have been no raises. 77 and 88 i might raise in early position and 99+ i will always raise in ep.
i play 25NL.

how do the top players at this site play PP at FR?
do they agree in general on an optimum way of playing them? (obv. poker is situational - but in general. there arent that many situations that can occur pf tho)

Originally Posted by mixchange

no reason, I must just not know how to use Poker Tracker well yet, couldnt get the window to max...I prolly sound like a newb.

you dont want to see my Ax stats or sc stats...teach me please! any good links or rules for that?

coz ur down 300BB/100 hands with 33!

Originally Posted by pokerroomace

i actually fold low pockets in early position. utg i think ill fold 66-22. and ill only start playing all of them in midposition.

This is terrible. If you want to open limp in EP at lower limits fine, but don't fold. Your hand has so much potential.

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Originally Posted by pokerroomace

i actually fold low pockets in early position. utg i think ill fold 66-22. and ill only start playing all of them in midposition.

This is terrible. If you want to open limp in EP at lower limits fine, but don't fold. Your hand has so much potential.

please explain why, swigg. if you limp in ep and get two callers, the pot is max $1.15 at 25 NL. how the hell can you call any bet on the flop w/o a set? you are drawing to a 2-outer and need like 22-23:1 to call correctly, right?

did you mean not to fold to a raiser? or not to fold period?

...or was this a sarcastic comment?...you have me a bit confused.

Originally Posted by pokerroomace

Originally Posted by mixchange

no reason, I must just not know how to use Poker Tracker well yet, couldnt get the window to max...I prolly sound like a newb.

you dont want to see my Ax stats or sc stats...teach me please! any good links or rules for that?

maybe the reason u do well with pockets is because of your loose image from other hands like SCs and Ax.
do Ax or Axs? Ax shouldn't really be a winner. only AT+ are decent/good. i dont know stats tho so dont shout at me n show me sum1 making a good profit with A2o.

Strangely, my lower Aces like A9 and down are winners, while A10 and up are currently losers. I think this is because I overplay them. I don't go all in with them, but I find myself losing medium sized pots frequently and only winning small pots. So I've decided to just call with AQ for now unless on the button, and raise only with AK. often what happens is another ace calls, but hits 2p on flop or turn and I get burned.

I think I just need to stop overplaying my ace cards. I don't do that well with suited aces, I find flushes extremely difficult to get paid on.

Originally Posted by mixchange

So I've decided to just call with AQ for now unless on the button, and raise only with AK.

I think this is REALLY weak. You could probably avoid some of your troubles by checking a lot of turns, and by not c-betting in bad spots.

Originally Posted by Chopper

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Originally Posted by pokerroomace

i actually fold low pockets in early position. utg i think ill fold 66-22. and ill only start playing all of them in midposition.

This is terrible. If you want to open limp in EP at lower limits fine, but don't fold. Your hand has so much potential.

please explain why, swigg. if you limp in ep and get two callers, the pot is max $1.15 at 25 NL. how the hell can you call any bet on the flop w/o a set? you are drawing to a 2-outer and need like 22-23:1 to call correctly, right?

did you mean not to fold to a raiser? or not to fold period?

...or was this a sarcastic comment?...you have me a bit confused.

Do NOT open fold pp's anywhere!!! It's not about drawing to a 2-outter post-flop. It's about hitting your set 1 out of 8 times on the flop and stacking a donk with TP or someone with a good 2nd best hand. It's also about having hand that has at least some showdown value when you are vs. draws. You are losing soooo much $$$ by just tossing these hands in the muck.

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Originally Posted by mixchange

So I've decided to just call with AQ for now unless on the button, and raise only with AK.

I think this is REALLY weak. You could probably avoid some of your troubles by checking a lot of turns, and by not c-betting in bad spots.

Can you give me some examples?

my question is for pp's, and i need to post this in mix's thread, is when DONT you go for the stack w/ your set?

the only examples i can think of would be on a 3-flush flop, or a double-paired board (maybe you slow down here).

Originally Posted by mixchange

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Originally Posted by mixchange

So I've decided to just call with AQ for now unless on the button, and raise only with AK.

I think this is REALLY weak. You could probably avoid some of your troubles by checking a lot of turns, and by not c-betting in bad spots.

Can you give me some examples?

i'll try to remember to save some hh's for you.

i'm talking about FR btw. i should never fold PPs when it hasn't been raised up before me?
what if there is a raise before me?
also, i don't stack other players that often when i do hit trips.
what if there is a v. high chance that someone behind me will raise?
when should i be raising PPs?

i am talking about full ring btw (just making sure you know)

Originally Posted by pokerroomace

i'm talking about FR btw. i should never fold PPs when it hasn't been raised up before me?
what if there is a raise before me?
also, i don't stack other players that often when i do hit trips.
what if there is a v. high chance that someone behind me will raise?
when should i be raising PPs?

i am talking about full ring btw (just making sure you know)

you should rarely be folding small-medium pp's with no raise in front (maybe if there's a pushbot maniac to your left or something, but only then). as far as calling a raise goes, many ppl go by a rule that says both you and the raiser need to have 15-20x the amount of the raise left behind to make calling the raise profitable. with 100bb's i usually don't call a raise that's over 5-6bb's from anyone (unless of course there are callers in front already with decent stacks). i also usually only call raises that big from full stacks only. if it's a 4bb raise then i'll call if villain has about a 3/4 stack or greater. i think a lot of ppl make the mistake of calling 4-5 bb raises vs. small stacks preflop. as far as raising pp's goes i think that it is just personal preference. there are those who raise all of them and those who don't. you can do just fine at lower stakes by set-hunting all of the small-medium pp's (i.e. limping them).

hmmmm

Im going to point out some obvious points. Not sure if they have been covered there simply far too much to read.

1. Raise sc's/Axs in lp to steal PRIMARILY. Sure, scenarios will occur where we have to take a flop and get nothing and where we genuinly open the pot in lp with a strong hand (im assuming its folded to us btw)
Leading from that, we flop a good draw/over flush/strong two pair a few times so assuming we play at least averagly postflop we should make money on monster hands/a few bluffs and blind stealing.

Same should apply to ALL pp's in lp too. Didnt sklansky write about all this somewhere?

2. Sure, we flop our set 1 in 8 times. But assuming we call 7-8 4bbs preflop raises we have to win 3o-odd bbs when we flop our set to break even (yeah i suck at math) so stacking people isnt always necessary.
Also, our pp is good sometimes (approx 1/3 IMO) for us to show it down versus the range of opponents we play, hence our required number of bbs to be won when we actually flop a set is lessened
Stop trying to stack every fish when you flop a set, that will come, just try to get value without scaring away weaker hands that can be played poorly.

3. Sc's are for multiway pots. If you all go and pokerstove a 10person all in, something like 56s not pocket 7s or pocket Aces even have the best equity. Hence common sense should tell you something, play sc's/Axs also perhaps, in multiway pots. Dont just call any raise because you find 87s in front of you, think about the why's of what you are doing and hoping to achieve.

Fwiw, stop looking at the damn numbers on your HUD and think about what the pretty numbers on your screen mean. Then think about why you do what you do.
For example, miniraising a solid FTR'er on a flushy flop with a set when you expect he has an overpair is not bad play, its just adjusting to someones elses game.

Fwiw, i am a small winner with Axs because i blind steal a lot (more important in 6max but still important in fr) My large sc's do well (hands that dont include face cards eg T9s and Jts) Qjs type hands are marginal, perhaps even close to being losers if i dont play in the right games. Ive certainly seen personal stats where QJs is a good winner over a decent sample and the opposite too.
PPs are good winners, especially mid-high pairs like 77-TT, but small pps are breakeven (at the stakes i now play set over set occurs often enough for me to consider them in position only when playing FR. In 6max i agree with more experienced players who still say raise in all positions even with 22 if you dont absolutly-fucking-suck postflop)

Position+ sc's = profit.
OOp + sc's = bustoFish.

good reply, miffed. thanks.

i feel that sc's are easy to play "in position." like a pp, if you hit the big draw (like a set w/ pp), play it hard...otherwise fold, even w/ 5 8 2 flop and you have 78s...FOLD.

oop, they suck, unless you REALLY know what you are doing...none of us under 50 NL can claim this one...the bad players just get lucky too often to make this one profitable, imo.

i think my problem is oop, mostly w/ sc's. and, better yet, raising pf oop. the main problem i didnt notice before with this strategy is that it "thins the field" WAY too much to make a sc "playable."

however, that has to make my premiums pay better, if someone is paying any attention to my raise oop of 78s. do you feel people "watch their PT stats" too much? if so, that would bump up my vpip and pfr to "looser" levels, and wouldnt this make the "sacrifice" of this leak profitable in other holdings, like AQ? is that possible to track?

just a general question, as i know that is too "fancy" a thought for the 25 tables.

Originally Posted by Chopper

good reply, miffed. thanks.

i feel that sc's are easy to play "in position." like a pp, if you hit the big draw (like a set w/ pp), play it hard...otherwise fold, even w/ 5 8 2 flop and you have 78s...FOLD.

oop, they suck, unless you REALLY know what you are doing...none of us under 50 NL can claim this one...the bad players just get lucky too often to make this one profitable, imo.

i think my problem is oop, mostly w/ sc's. and, better yet, raising pf oop. the main problem i didnt notice before with this strategy is that it "thins the field" WAY too much to make a sc "playable."

however, that has to make my premiums pay better, if someone is paying any attention to my raise oop of 78s. do you feel people "watch their PT stats" too much? if so, that would bump up my vpip and pfr to "looser" levels, and wouldnt this make the "sacrifice" of this leak profitable in other holdings, like AQ? is that possible to track?

just a general question, as i know that is too "fancy" a thought for the 25 tables.

one of the things i see constantly is players playing 100nl/200nl even sometimes 400nl who play so mechanically it too easy to steal from them repetitivly and to avoid playing major hands when they have a monster.
Hence, you might for example be playing a 20/10 game, but if you open with sc's in mp even UTG once every so often to mix it up, you will become a little less readable. For me its simply that people put you on cards or a range preflop, and when you dont have that expected range you start taking stacks from players who cant fold hands, and i think of stars nits who cant fold sets in particular.

i would agree w/ you. but down here in the trenches (25 NL), do you think its more +EV to "mix it up" or simply practice your "discilpline" by trying to stay w/ "abc poker?"

i cant identify very few "thinking" players. most have read a book, or seen a starting hands chart, but very few do anything post-flop other than: bet when their card hits, check/fold when it doesnt, and check-raise/float monsters...thats about it. 3betting, as you know, means AA/KK/maybe AK or QQ, but very seldom is it anything else. and a RR pf to all-in, by a LAG, is either a bluff w/ crap like ATo or KK/AA, and you have about a 50/50 shot at which is which...even with a read of a deeper stack. shorties push w/ just about anything, but not all of them.

so, again, it seems to me, that the proper poker down here is to sit and simply "avoid mistakes" and leave the "fancier plays" to the guys at the higher stakes. do you agree?

Originally Posted by Chopper

i would agree w/ you. but down here in the trenches (25 NL), do you think its more +EV to "mix it up" or simply practice your "discilpline" by trying to stay w/ "abc poker?"

i cant identify very few "thinking" players. most have read a book, or seen a starting hands chart, but very few do anything post-flop other than: bet when their card hits, check/fold when it doesnt, and check-raise/float monsters...thats about it. 3betting, as you know, means AA/KK/maybe AK or QQ, but very seldom is it anything else. and a RR pf to all-in, by a LAG, is either a bluff w/ crap like ATo or KK/AA, and you have about a 50/50 shot at which is which...even with a read of a deeper stack. shorties push w/ just about anything, but not all of them.

so, again, it seems to me, that the proper poker down here is to sit and simply "avoid mistakes" and leave the "fancier plays" to the guys at the higher stakes. do you agree?

my simple answer to anyone playing less than 100nl is 'dont play on stars or full tilt'
There are other sites out there, even for US players, where you should get enough action without having to plod through thousand of hands at stars for a crappy bbs/100 rate playing much better poker than you should need to.
Rakeback + bonus whoring + casino whoring = br for 100nl.

And depending on how much time you have depends on how quickly that will happen.

Miffed, what do you reccomend for 50NL then? I'm about to take my roll out of Stars and move half to Full tilt and half to Ultimate Bet for their 100% matching bonus and rakeback. $1250 total.

Originally Posted by benny999

pokerroomace, "3bet" is actually the raise after a pfr, like the 12bb bet after a 4bb pfr...even though I agree it makes more sense to just call it a 2bet

no it isnt.

Bet raise reraise

Bet=bet raise =2bet reraise=3bet

Originally Posted by mixchange

Miffed, what do you reccomend for 50NL then? I'm about to take my roll out of Stars and move half to Full tilt and half to Ultimate Bet for their 100% matching bonus and rakeback. $1250 total.

dont say Absolute, as these guys are tighter than anything i've seen. the only other places i can think of would be UB (because of volume) or Bodog. anywhere else?

Originally Posted by Pelion

Originally Posted by benny999

pokerroomace, "3bet" is actually the raise after a pfr, like the 12bb bet after a 4bb pfr...even though I agree it makes more sense to just call it a 2bet

no it isnt.

Bet raise reraise

Bet=bet raise =2bet reraise=3bet

yes it is, bb = bet, 4bb raise = 2bet, 12bb re-raise = 3bet

Originally Posted by mixchange

Miffed, what do you reccomend for 50NL then? I'm about to take my roll out of Stars and move half to Full tilt and half to Ultimate Bet for their 100% matching bonus and rakeback. $1250 total.

bodog for sure. rb+bonus+ fish (makes up for lack of tables)
If you are still allowed (i think you are) then doyles for the tribeca network+rb+bonus (equals 80%of you contributed rake until cleared)
Try prima (its still accepting some US players on Some skins) rb maybe less available on the skins you can get on but primas bonuses are normally pretty easy and 20nl/50nl/200nl games are pretty ok.

If you have the comp, and take the time to get used to it, 3 tabling bodog while 4tabling tribeca(doylesroom, max 4 tables i think) means you can get the volume in while still playing in what IMO are the best games available to you playing small stakes.
When you get to 100nl i think its a personal preference as to whether as a US player you ten table stars fr or continue. Ill always be of the opinion that until you hit 6k (the br i feel you should have to play 200nl) you should take rb and bonus cash over fpps at stars or any similar offer as 200nl is where you can make a sum of cash that looks appetizing (compared to 50nl and even 100nl IMO)

thanks. i have "traditionally" murdered stars (my best site), but have noticed it getting tougher, even with the bump in volume after US regs.

Originally Posted by Chopper

this is the kind of math i need to "learn" how to compute. any articles, links, etc you would recommend?

just so you know I didn't compute anything-- I just punched buttons in pokerstove (a free poker calculator) and it says what % of hands it is.
Otherwise, I just reccomend to read and post here and other forums. Books and articles help too but a lot of the concepts (at least from the ones I've read) are talked about in the forums anyway.

Originally Posted by Pelion

Originally Posted by benny999

pokerroomace, "3bet" is actually the raise after a pfr, like the 12bb bet after a 4bb pfr...even though I agree it makes more sense to just call it a 2bet

no it isnt.

Bet raise reraise

Bet=bet raise =2bet reraise=3bet

i'm so disappointed pelion...

Originally Posted by benny999

Originally Posted by Chopper

this is the kind of math i need to "learn" how to compute. any articles, links, etc you would recommend?

just so you know I didn't compute anything-- I just punched buttons in pokerstove (a free poker calculator) and it says what % of hands it is.
Otherwise, I just reccomend to read and post here and other forums. Books and articles help too but a lot of the concepts (at least from the ones I've read) are talked about in the forums anyway.

PokerStove is great, I agree. Some numbers you should have memorized though is preflop value of different starting hands versus other starting hands. ie: you should know AA vs KK is 80% vs 20%, low pocket pair vs two overcards is about 55% vs 45%, etc

Originally Posted by Scrimmage

Originally Posted by benny999

Originally Posted by Chopper

this is the kind of math i need to "learn" how to compute. any articles, links, etc you would recommend?

just so you know I didn't compute anything-- I just punched buttons in pokerstove (a free poker calculator) and it says what % of hands it is.
Otherwise, I just reccomend to read and post here and other forums. Books and articles help too but a lot of the concepts (at least from the ones I've read) are talked about in the forums anyway.

PokerStove is great, I agree. Some numbers you should have memorized though is preflop value of different starting hands versus other starting hands. ie: you should know AA vs KK is 80% vs 20%, low pocket pair vs two overcards is about 55% vs 45%, etc

i agree, and do have the obvious ones down. (pair over pair, flush draw, bet size to take away draws, etc). its the "fancier" ones i dont take the time to calculate, but sometimes should...or just dont know how.

like...i have a flush draw w/ a gutshot (AsTs to a flop of Ks Js 8d), villain's range is 88+, QXs, 9To, etc)...how do i caluculate my EV, or FE?

or...i have overpair to low board (9s9d to 2d 6d 7s)... now how do i figure my percentages against villain's TT+ or OE draw (one i beat, the other i do not).

please nobody go nuts calculating these situations, as they are fictional and off the top of my head. meaning, if they did come up, they may not even be worth calculating at the time. just examples of difficult calcs to make in a 15-30 sec window.

thats the challenge...there are a few cases where a "pro" will come across some microscopically small edge that he finds through multiple calcs of FE, EV, odds, implied odds, etc. and, these guys crank off some wierd idea of whether they are ahead or behind, or if they should bet the "FE" or "blow the guy off the hand." again, this may be too much TV, but i am led to believe some "pros" are human calculators, and sometimes it would be nice to know when you need to stop and think "math."

i seem to "go with my gut" a lot, and sometimes its right, and others its not. cant help but think "situational math" helps...

but when to use it?

come to think of it, this may not be the best place to ask this one. maybe i'll start another topic with it.

how bout this for a 1-gapper...sc...whatever...all thesame to me.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG+1 ($17.05)
MP1 ($14.05)
MP2 ($4.55)
CO ($11.45)
Button ($30.05)
SB ($9.45)
BB ($22.55)
Hero ($19.55)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 7, 9.
Hero calls $0.25, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.25, 1 fold, Button calls $0.25, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($1.25) 6, 8, 5 (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $0.75, MP2 calls $0.75, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls $0.75.

Turn: ($3.50) 6 (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $2.5, MP2 raises to $3.55, BB raises to $15, Hero raises to $18.55, BB calls $3.55.

River: ($44.15) Q (3 players)

Final Pot: $44.15

(takes a bow) i will occasionally play somthing like this...to change it up.

and thanks for the help, i'm sure credit is due here...and in the future.