making reads to earn more profit

How many of you talented players in hear make an extra profit by making reads and simply outplaying a player. Last night I had AQ suited from the button and I raise 4.5x the BB and an aggressive player called me. I know he called me with anything at this point because he called anyone he thought that raised with a big Ace (AK, AQ, AJ). The only difference is the other players couldn't play back because they were weak. I decided that I didn't care about my stack here and thought I would just try to outplay him. So the flop comes, i hit nothing and I raise like $6, he calls, turn comes and I raise another $4, he calls, river comes, no flush or straight made. I raise $7 more and he calls with a pair 6 with !!! I asked him how could he just call me with pair 6 with two overcards on the board and he said that he put me on a big Ace. My ace or queen didn't hit and he won the pot. The reason why it intrigued me is because his stack was over $100 at a $25 n/l table. I've only made over $100 3 times and those came on great draws with great odds. So, how many of you guys out there put players on hands such as a big ace and and as long as you flop a pair, bet aggressively if there is no ace all the way to the river. Do you bust out more or profit more from this sort of play?

Here's my deal:
PF 3x bet with 88, gets raised by a player with a history full of check-raises and slow-plays in late position, I call for stacking potential. Flop comes 9h3d2s, opponent bets.

Nobody rr's with A-9, and this guy is the slowplay king? I don't think so. I'm raising here, and if I'm called, I'm betting the turn and check/calling the river. Most likely AQ/AK, JJ and TT are also possibilities.

Ask your self if this is how you play AA/KK (bet sizes etc.) If not and observant player will detect weakness and call you down. Some players may call you down anyway. It takes special circumstanses and a strong read on a players style and range to outplay them. Just deciding pre-flop that you are going to play this guy off a hand will lead to trouble, especially out of position.

He is no genius. There is at least 1 or 2 players like this at 6-max $25NL who will call you down with any pocket pair. If you can't beat this player, you can't beat anyone.

Your play really, really sucks btw.

is 4.5xBB your standard raise, or were there limpers??

Originally Posted by Off5th

So, how many of you guys out there put players on hands such as a big ace and and as long as you flop a pair, bet aggressively if there is no ace all the way to the river. Do you bust out more or profit more from this sort of play?

Every good player puts the opponent on a range of hands and pays the pot accordingly. This is why as you move up, lagging becomes more profitable, since you are screwing up the range your opponent puts you on. This is not the only function of lagging, but definately one of them. You should start making reads and making moves immediately. I suggest moving down a level as you begin to play pure read poker. You'll be wrong a lot, until things become second nature. I wouldn't want you losing your shirt and your confidence as you traverse a necessary learning curve.

You can't make moves without reads. You are playing average poker if you don't find yourself making moves. Something like that.

The raise on the turn gave it away...think about it....you raise $6 on the flop and nothing hits and you bet $4 on the turn....this bet shows huge weakness.....if you had JJ and had a caller on the flop betting $6, wouldn't you raise 2/3 of the pot again or more to protect your top pair and weed out the trash? You confirmed his inkling about your two overs with a small bet on the turn....after the hand he can say anything he wants to get in your head because he was right in this instance.

Maybe that's just the thing here. I learned so much on how to be profitble with drawing hands and making the right calls when i have pot odds, that I'm afraid to step out of the circle and learn something new. Especially if its going to cut down on my profits that I won. I know that putting players on hands is crucial to improving your game, but I'm not sure i'm ready to lose my stacks only to find out they made a set after the showdown, and my pocket 10s weren't good enough.

....oh by the way when I raise with AQ, I was in the button not BB. And there was a limper was 2 limpers b4 me.

Sorry I mis read your HH, thought you were OOP, but I still think you were blindly throwing chips in the pot.

As you work on your hand reading, opportunitys to play someone off a hand will present themselves due to your read and the situation. For example, you open raise in LP with TT, its folded to the BB (straightforward TAG) who re-raises you and you know from this player it means a high PP. You call hoping for the set but the flop comes Aragrag. Tag leads quite weak and you raise feeling he has KK/QQ and is scared of the A. He folds and you win the pot. Hey presto you outplayed the stronger hand using position, reads and the situation.

Another one is where your drawing to a straight but then a flush comes in and the opponent shuts down, take it off him.

Just remember this only works against tight players who are able to lay down TPTK (or 66 on a junk flop), I'm not sure how many qualify at $25NL. Just remember you need to be totaly consistant with the hand you are repping and make them an offer they have to refuse. Oh, and don't do it too often or they will get on to you.

Remember a bluff should be consistent. So, don't overbet. It looks suspicious, inconsistent and it cuts down on your bluffing odds.

Originally Posted by Rondavu

You can't make moves without reads. You are playing average poker if you don't find yourself making moves.

Just don't fall into the trap of trying to pull "moves" all the time and ending up spewing chips, pick your spots well and you can pick up a few extra pots but if you try to steal too many people will start trapping\playing back at you which will make your life quite difficult (unless of course you go on a rush of cards). Pulling a move after winning the last 3 pots without showdown is less likely to succeed than trying the same move after folding for 2 orbits. People underestimate the amount of money you can make by simply playing solid TAG poker combined with basic hand reading skills. In my experience of NL (at least up to 200NL) you can beat the games quite well by just playing tight solid poker, building big pots when you have a monster ie knowing how to bet, knowing when to get away from second best hands (or at least controlling the pot size in marginal situations), adjusting to different players' tendencies and being aware of your image and how it affects the other players decisions when they are in pots with you. Everyone wants to be LAGs but most of them cant even play solid poker. Thats like building a house on the sand.

Oh and emotional control and bankroll management helps too.

If maximizing profits at higher levels means to play a LAGG sort of game, when should one begin this educational experience?

I'm @ 25NL playing TAGG. Should I begin here, so that the move through the 50NL rock garden is that much easier? Or is 25NL too much of a calling station? What level is a good level @ Stars to practice?

There are more than enough soft games out there so you don't need to play in a rock garden. I don't think you have to worry about people not giving your TAG style action until about 100NL and then just start mixing in some suited connectors in position and opening up your game a little. I think as you gain more experience you tend to notice more opportunities so it is a natural progression. BTW LAG isnt necessarily better than TAG, it all depends on the table and a good player doesn't play just one style - he knows how to adapt to the table.

Originally Posted by BankItPayette

If maximizing profits at higher levels means to play a LAGG sort of game, when should one begin this educational experience?

lagging up @ 25/50 tables is suicide--the level of play is so abjectly trashy that you will come up against a brick wall. play top-ten hands, take 1 pot down per half hour, move in with kings & aces every single time, even into a 3xbb pot, & you will enlarge your b-roll.

200/400 full ring tables, depending on the site in question & the luck of the draw, lagging up can turn profitable but it's still a risky proposition. the range of hands that you can come up against 10/9 handed is just too great to ignore, & if you think your top two is good on a 962 rainbow board, what the hell happens when the turn's a ten?

200/400 6-max is where you should open up your game a lot, getting very creative w/ trapping hands that have a lot of hidden drawing potention, playing gaped suited connectors, doing position re-raises w/ any two cards & consistent continuation bets on a flop that completely misses you, advertising bluffs etc.

Lagging at 50 NL is definately not suicide. I do it constantly, and it gives me fantastic results. The fact is, 50 NL players are tight enough to push around for a while, and stupid enough to tilt with GREAT ease once they start looking you down.

At levels below that, players are so piss poor and not paying attention, that lagging is just not a good plan.

Haha well my last session at Paradise I pwned this guy playing heads up at $25 n/l table. It was a full ring but everyone had left and only me, the guy I pwned, and a weak player was left. I scoped out how this guy played before I sat down on the table he was playing agressive with all kings of hands. One big hand I remember heads up: I was on the button, sb folds, bb (aggressive player) raises $1.00, I call, I got a queen high flush draw, he bets like $1.00, I call. Turn comes I miss, he bets another $2, I call. River comes and I hit my flush. He bets lik $3, I raise it to $6, then he goes all-in. So I sat back and reevaluate his betting pattern. From recent hands I studied, I made a note that he likes to bet hard on his draws and at this hand he didn't. I didn't think he was clever enough to change his betting pattern either. I called and took all his $43.00. After that hand his playing style to passive. I took advantage of this and became aggressive postflop. I scored another $25 of his entire stack later and I ended up with more than $75 or his stack after the session. Playing heads up has always been an issue for me because I didn't know how to put people on hands but after this session it has given me some confidence to play solid poker and start putting players on range of hands they play.

Originally Posted by Off5th

Playing heads up has always been an issue for me because I didn't know how to put people on hands but after this session it has given me some confidence to play solid poker and start putting players on range of hands they play.

You should be able to destack someone very quickly heads up at 25NL if you're making the necessary reads.

When you play higher stakes reads play a huge part. Without them it's like sports gambling (for me atleast). Knowledge without the edge.

I base me game on tagg, and thats spelled tagg and not rock. From this I pick my spots when to move out to lagg. These spots are based on my read on a player(s).

Oh, and looking at the hand on the top, that is some strange play. Pot is like 3$ on the flop, you dont hit and open for 6! 2*pot vs a player you have a read on that sais he likes to call. Just take a moment to think about it. Your making your plays based on emotions and not knowledge.

Originally Posted by Rondavu

Lagging at 50 NL is definately not suicide. I do it constantly, and it gives me fantastic results. The fact is, 50 NL players are tight enough to push around for a while, and stupid enough to tilt with GREAT ease once they start looking you down.

Agreed...I limp all sorts of shit in LP, and I'll open raise in LP with 78o the same if it's really rocky. Nothing better than getting in cheap with relative garbage and destacking a predictable rock who obviously hit two pair.