making the move from 25NL to 50NL

I finally hit that point again where I felt the wins no longer could justify the losses in comparison to my BR at 25NL (I did the same at 10NL), so I made my move up to 50NL 6max with 22 buyins.

Now, there was a huge difference in play from 10NL 6max to 25NL 6max, same amount of fish, but not even close to as loose/passive. What can I expect in this new level? What adjustments can and should be made to normal play?

My winrate was only marginal at 25NL (probably 6bb/100, compared to 13 at 10NL but I've heard this is often the case in 25NL) and I started to experiment with LAggy (which worked on the right table) so I'd say my game is semi-tagg and semi-lagg rather than either/or

I don't play six-max, but the ring game difference is that 50NL players pucker up like little buttholes.

This isn't to say you won't get action, but I think huge pots are generally AA v KK, set vs overpair, flush over flush. Rather than TPTK vs top two, AA vs 99, etc.

The players aren't a lot better, just a lot tighter. They TAGged their way to 50NL. They still can't lay aces without a damn scary board, like a four flush they don't have. But hell, who lays down aces?

That's my perception at least, and of the ring game.

Originally Posted by sejje

The players aren't a lot better, just a lot tighter. They TAGged their way to 50NL.

I'm not a six-max guy either, but this was my experience with NL50 full-ring. The guys that head to NL50 are usually graduates of NL25, much like yourself. Typically these players are tougher than the ones you'll find at NL100 (and a lot tougher than NL25). The typical NL player usually starts out at NL25 and graduates on up....or they start out at NL100 and make or break themselves there.

As I said, I'm not a six-max player...But I found that I wanted to basically avoid NL50 because it was a rock garden (full-ring).

Despite it being a rock garden, I've always done well at 50NL, making more than I make playing 25NL.

And EVERY time I start out at 100NL, I get bad beat for a couple buy-ins and freak out and drop back.

If I could have a good first week at 100NL, I'd probably never look back.

i have a roll of 1300 now so i 8-table NL50 full ring.
basically you will run into a huge fish at each table you play. maybe a couple players better or just as good as you and the rest are just decent. in about 1000 hands today i ran into someone who called my preflop raise with AA and couldnt fold after i flopped a straight with QTs. still many players who will not fold nut flush on paired board etc. I know you have skills edudlive see you at NL50.

50nl edud? 6max?
congrats!!
i had faith..... really i did.
Ok first my man go back to the taggy for a bit watch the tables and stuff. Not really much difference apart from players will now bluff and call your bluffs a bit more often. There isnt much in the way of level 3 play, in fact most still struggle with level2, what does my opponent have.
The most important skill i picked up at 50nl was reraising opps with top pair (especially after a preflop raise) to find out where you are (if you dont do this already) Mixed with your style this should do just fine.
Good luck and ill meet you at 100nl in the summer i hopes :P

edit i cant remember where you play (stars???) but a lot of people say that 50nl is a rock fest. I wont deny it might be on some sites but where ive played making the most of each hand is crucial, rather than being aggressive. You may have to move tables a lot. depends!

This hand occured at NL50 not too long ago.

PokerStars Game #3015621224: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2005/11/09 - 18:28:46 (ET)
Table 'Numidia' Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: stjerno8 ($7.20 in chips)
Seat 2: dontbeafraid ($42 in chips)
Seat 3: Squire69 ($66.80 in chips)
Seat 4: bru99 ($44 in chips)
Seat 6: AHDOC ($55.75 in chips)
Seat 7: DeGeorge ($53.50 in chips)
Seat 8: hugothegreat ($53.25 in chips)
Seat 9: rebuyman ($47.60 in chips)
hugothegreat: posts small blind $0.25
rebuyman: posts big blind $0.50
sanity666: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to rebuyman [Th Td]
stjerno8: folds
dontbeafraid: folds
Squire69: folds
bru99: folds
AHDOC: calls $0.50
DeGeorge: calls $0.50
hugothegreat: folds
rebuyman: raises $1.50 to $2
AHDOC: folds
DeGeorge: calls $1.50
*** FLOP *** [9h Kc 6c]
rebuyman: bets $2
DeGeorge: calls $2
*** TURN *** [9h Kc 6c] [3h]
rebuyman: bets $3
DeGeorge: calls $3
*** RIVER *** [9h Kc 6c 3h] [2s]
rebuyman: checks
DeGeorge: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
rebuyman: shows [Th Td] (a pair of Tens)
DeGeorge: shows the nuts [5h 4s] (a straight, Deuce to Six)
DeGeorge collected $14.05 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $14.75 | Rake $0.70
Board [9h Kc 6c 3h 2s]
Seat 1: stjerno8 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: dontbeafraid folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Squire69 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: bru99 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: AHDOC folded before Flop
Seat 7: DeGeorge (button) showed the nuts [5h 4s] and won ($14.05) with a straight, Deuce to Six
Seat 8: hugothegreat (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: rebuyman (big blind) showed [Th Td] and lost with a pair of Tens

he called my flop bet with 5 high, no pair no draw.

This time he can't fold AQo high.

PokerStars Game #3015748845: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2005/11/09 - 18:43:04 (ET)
Table 'Eagle' Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: horsemo ($24.25 in chips)
Seat 2: rebuyman ($44.50 in chips)
Seat 3: JAJoyce ($22.10 in chips)
Seat 5: Muzzlebuster ($24.50 in chips)
Seat 6: fanboy ($25.10 in chips)
Seat 7: NoranRadd ($77.35 in chips)
Seat 8: quentinus ($37.30 in chips)
NoranRadd: posts small blind $0.25
quentinus: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to rebuyman [Qc Qh]
horsemo: folds
rebuyman: raises $1.50 to $2
JAJoyce: calls $2
Muzzlebuster: folds
fanboy: folds
NoranRadd: calls $1.75
quentinus: folds
*** FLOP *** [Jd 8c 3c]
NoranRadd: checks
rebuyman: bets $3
JAJoyce: calls $3
NoranRadd: folds
*** TURN *** [Jd 8c 3c] [Ts]
rebuyman: bets $6
JAJoyce: calls $6
*** RIVER *** [Jd 8c 3c Ts] [As]
rebuyman: checks
JAJoyce: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
rebuyman: shows [Qc Qh] (a pair of Queens)
JAJoyce: shows [Ad Qs] (a pair of Aces)
JAJoyce collected $23.35 from pot
rebuyman said, "...."
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $24.50 | Rake $1.15
Board [Jd 8c 3c Ts As]
Seat 1: horsemo folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: rebuyman showed [Qc Qh] and lost with a pair of Queens
Seat 3: JAJoyce showed [Ad Qs] and won ($23.35) with a pair of Aces
Seat 5: Muzzlebuster folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: fanboy (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: NoranRadd (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 8: quentinus (big blind) folded before Flop


NOTE: not a bad beat post, just showing how bad the players can be at NL50.

This isn't a bad beat either. Especially since I won. But this isn't exactly atypical. Maybe the last guy to call

***** Hand History for Game 3010264321 *****
$50 NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, November 09, 20:07:54 EDT 2005
Table Table 65892 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: StrattMan28 ( $30 )
Seat 2: Alice242 ( $57.20 )
Seat 3: MOREFOOS ( $73.75 )
Seat 4: levis03 ( $51.20 )
Seat 5: RWTEX ( $45.35 )
Seat 6: ned11 ( $112.86 )
Seat 7: redrodeo ( $57.45 )
Seat 8: sejje ( $57.90 )
Seat 9: basman44 ( $49 )
Seat 10: jobson14 ( $43 )
ned11 posts small blind [$0.25].
redrodeo posts big blind [$0.50].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to sejje [ Ks Kd ]
sejje calls [$0.50].
basman44 raises [$2].
jobson14 folds.
StrattMan28 folds.
Alice242 calls [$2].
MOREFOOS calls [$2].
levis03 folds.
RWTEX calls [$2].
ned11 calls [$1.75].
redrodeo folds.
sejje is all-In [$57.40]
basman44 is all-In [$47]
Alice242 folds.
MOREFOOS folds.
RWTEX folds.
ned11 calls [$55.90].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 6h, 2h, Kh ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 8s ]
** Dealing River ** [ Jd ]
basman44 shows [ Qh, Qd ] a pair of queens.
ned11 shows [ 7d, 7h ] a pair of sevens.
sejje shows [ Ks, Kd ] three of a kind, kings.
sejje wins $17.80 from side pot #1 with three of a kind, kings.
sejje wins $150.50 from the main pot with three of a kind, kings.

The four callers of that first guy's raise, that was so hella sweet. Made it look like a steal and everything. Oh, joy. And a limp-reraise isn't even my usual play.

Here's a couple more fun ones.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

SB ($31.35)
BB ($50.12)
UTG ($23.38)
Hero ($25.50)
CO ($16.49)
Button ($32.51)

Preflop: Hero is MP with J, 7. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
2 folds, CO calls $0.25, Button calls $0.25, SB (poster) raises to $1.9, 1 fold, CO folds, Button calls $1.75.

Flop: ($4.50) 9, A, 9 (2 players)
SB bets $4, Button calls $4.

Turn: ($12.50) 3 (2 players)
SB checks, Button checks.

River: ($12.50) J (2 players)
SB bets $4, Button calls $4.

Final Pot: $20.50

Results in white below:
SB has Kc Ks (two pair, kings and nines).
Button has 8c 8s (two pair, nines and eights).
Outcome: SB wins $20.50.

I wasn't involved there.

And,

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

MP3 ($42.20)
CO ($56.13)
Button ($57.92)
SB ($50.85)
Hero ($51.55)
UTG ($49.50)
UTG+1 ($72.35)
MP1 ($70.45)
MP2 ($162.53)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K, K. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.50, 4 folds, Hero raises to $2, MP1 calls $2.

Flop: ($5.25) 5, 4, 8 (3 players)
Hero bets $6, MP1 calls $6.

Turn: ($17.25) 9 (3 players)
Hero bets $16, MP1 calls $16.

River: ($49.25) T (3 players)
MP1 calls $27.05.

Final Pot: $76.30

Results in white below:
Hero has Kh Kc (one pair, kings).
MP1 has Th Ad (one pair, tens).
Button doesn't show.
Outcome: Hero wins $76.30.

That one's a little off, I bet the rest on the river. Pot was 100.


So, point is 50NL is still a cakewalk, and they're not as tight as they're made out to be...just a lot tighter than 25NL.

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

50nl edud? 6max?
congrats!!
i had faith..... really i did.
Ok first my man go back to the taggy for a bit watch the tables and stuff. Not really much difference apart from players will now bluff and call your bluffs a bit more often. There isnt much in the way of level 3 play, in fact most still struggle with level2, what does my opponent have.
The most important skill i picked up at 50nl was reraising opps with top pair (especially after a preflop raise) to find out where you are (if you dont do this already) Mixed with your style this should do just fine.
Good luck and ill meet you at 100nl in the summer i hopes :P

edit i cant remember where you play (stars???) but a lot of people say that 50nl is a rock fest. I wont deny it might be on some sites but where ive played making the most of each hand is crucial, rather than being aggressive. You may have to move tables a lot. depends!

Yep Stars. At my first real session Gametime+ had the following for my 6max (note: SIX MAX) table:

myself: 33% VPIP with 10% PFR (not sure about my PFR but thats about what it usually is)
three guys 8% (yes, 8%)-20% VPIP and 0-1% PFR
one guy 68% VPIP with 0% PFR (man I loved this guy)
one guy with VPIP of 33% as well but I don't remember his PFR

The table was so easy...example hand:


PokerStars Game #3004700134: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2005/11/08 - 12:07:22 (ET)
Table 'Eugenia' Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: dave0007 ($25 in chips)
Seat 2: macca99 ($28.60 in chips)
Seat 3: stakes19 ($47.50 in chips)
Seat 4: SlickDawg62 ($49.15 in chips)
Seat 5: Freddy Chang ($92.10 in chips)
Seat 6: edudlive ($60.40 in chips)
dave0007: posts small blind $0.25
macca99: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to edudlive [Kd Kc]
stakes19: folds
SlickDawg62: folds
Freddy Chang: folds
edudlive: raises $1.50 to $2
dave0007: calls $1.75 <--semi good guy, I won't like seeing a flopped ace against this guy
macca99: calls $1.50<--the table fish (68% VPIP)
*** FLOP *** [Jd 2h Js]
dave0007: checks
macca99: checks
edudlive: bets $3
dave0007: folds
macca99: calls $3 <--my quote "damn, he's got the jack" because of the check call with no obvious draws
*** TURN *** [Jd 2h Js] [3d]
macca99: checks
edudlive: checks he checks again but I check behind since I know I'm beat, ready to fold the river to a bet
*** RIVER *** [Jd 2h Js 3d] [Kh]
macca99: bets $3
edudlive: raises $52.40 to $55.40 and is all-in I hit my uber lucky river against the fish and since I know he'll call his whole stack thinking I have AK (not but KK or a better Jack) I put my whole stack in..since he'll obviously call with his jack
macca99: calls $20.60 and is all-in
*** SHOW DOWN ***
edudlive: shows [Kd Kc] (a full house, Kings full of Jacks)
macca99: mucks hand
edudlive collected $56.30 from pot
dave0007 said, "nice"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $59.20 | Rake $2.90
Board [Jd 2h Js 3d Kh]
Seat 1: dave0007 (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 2: macca99 (big blind) mucked [Jh 7d]nh gg ty eaw eaw glub glub
Seat 3: stakes19 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: SlickDawg62 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Freddy Chang folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: edudlive (button) showed [Kd Kc] and won ($56.30) with a full house, Kings full of Jacks

Very well played.

What does this mean?

Originally Posted by evildude

I finally hit that point again where I felt the wins no longer could justify the losses in comparison to my BR at 25NL

I just bounced back to 20NL after a disastrous first run at 50NL.. -6bb/100 over 5700 hands Some of it could be explained by variance, but I think there's a big difference in skill level too. (For comparison, 18K hands at 20NL yielded +6bb/100, last 10K even 10bb/100). I play at Prima by the way.

Just my $50NL experiance, which is limited to a month or so of play, but I found the games at party were much less rocky than stars and much more fishy... so I moved most of my BR back to party and kept some at stars for tournys

Originally Posted by Demiparadigm

Very well played.

What does this mean?

Originally Posted by evildude

I finally hit that point again where I felt the wins no longer could justify the losses in comparison to my BR at 25NL

I have a hard time describing this, but I think it is a level of "reverse tilt" that I have suffered at every level. At some point, winning pots at 25NL is no longer exciting (even a huge $50ish one) because the money doesn't affect my bankroll. When you're playing with $1,000, $25 up and down doesn't make a difference too much, so I definately starting playing out of my normal A game because the money stopped mattering as much to me...causing me to play break even (or slightly +) poker. It also happened to me right before I moved up from 10NL

Thats fair enough. So what is your bankroll at now?
Id have been playing a few hands at 50nl once i hit 15 buy ins (750) anyway so if your up to 1k then i can understand why you moved. I moved at 800 and hit 1100 quickly. So i dont see how trying the level above when you reach 15buy ins is a bad thing.

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Thats fair enough. So what is your bankroll at now?
Id have been playing a few hands at 50nl once i hit 15 buy ins (750) anyway so if your up to 1k then i can understand why you moved. I moved at 800 and hit 1100 quickly. So i dont see how trying the level above when you reach 15buy ins is a bad thing.

I went from 400(where I started 25NL) to 750 (15 buyins for 50NL) in a matter of like 3 days at 25NL...so I wanted to stick around at the level for a bit longer than that but after the $1,000 mark I decided I really needed to move if I wanted to improve my game. Currently I'm at $1,200