wow, i'm replying alot of times to this...

further more.. the situation i spoke of, now that i've read it, was limping in. I had input the minimum amount, so there wasnt a pot worth taking yet. As ChezJ said, its not a weak move, TPTK 8s.. your probably best but there is just way to many hands that could be out there already and beating you. and in Rondavu's example, his QJ TPGK may have been +EV, but without position we dont know, one of the 6 players in could have already got a set.. then what do we have.. drawing dead.