Live vs. online

I have a friend that is just about to start playing online. he plays a lot live but is new to online poker. he plays 2/5 NL at the Hard Rock in Tampa (I think). I wanted to give him some insight as to the differences of the two but since I play very little live so I am not much help. He is a new FTR member as well I think (or soon will be).

Hoping Fnord and some some regs out there in the B&M's can give him some good tips on stakes to start at, player differences and just some good advive on the transition.

I tried to search for some posts on it as I'm sure its been covered but really couldn't narrow it down.

Thanks guys!!!!

I'm no expert, but just to get the ball rolling, table per table, online play is harder. In fact, in trying to compare stakes, which is not a reliable science, many players have suggested the ratio is 10 to 1. In other words, if you are a successful $5/$10 ($1000) NL live player, then you would likely best fit into a $0.5/$1 ($100) online game. Again, these are just estimates and there's no exact way to correlate, but it's definitely something to keep in mind.

Live players are generally much weaker, easier to read (polarized ranges), and don't like to fold (showdown monkeys). Online players are overall better, harder to read (no physical tells), and by comparison will fold more often. When playing online, you want to take advantage of all the things you can't take advantage of live - multi-tabling, using a HUD, taking good notes, and table selection.

If someone is a reasonable winner @ $5/$10 ($1000) live, but has never played online. My suggestion would be to deposit $1000 to a site and start playing $25NL. That player should be able to crush the games while getting used to all the new online game variables and then naturally work up the stakes. If he or she gets off to a slow start, don't be ashamed to drop down to $10NL if the bankroll hits $750 or so. Although the game of poker doesn't change, live play IS different than online play.

Also, bankroll management shouldn't really change from live to online, but error to the side of caution with your online bankroll as money can virtually come and go quicker and is harder to deposit and withdraw compared to live.

Welcome to your friend and good luck. I started in March of 2009 with 1950.00 invested and all I play is MTT. My Bankroll is now 14,000. That was mostly thanks to FTR and reading alot of post's and article's in the Beginner's Circle. Disecting this site will help you learn every situation from everyone's, Been There-Done That experience. And page back to older post's. Good Luck and have fun.

Speed, it's just a lot faster when you start online.

sorry

There will probably be no way to convince him to play $10NL to start. He will think it's beneath him and try $1/$2 for sure because that will be enough of a drop. When he asks for help then explain to him the difference in hands played, information available and just the overall willingness of online players to get better. $2/$5 live is like $25NL at most. Tons of bad players and one or two regs, with the odd maniac and one total Noob at each table.

$2/$5 live is NL10

Originally Posted by Jason

If someone is a reasonable winner @ $5/$10 ($1000) live, but has never played online. My suggestion would be to deposit $1000 to a site and start playing $25NL. That player should be able to crush the games while getting used to all the new online game variables and then naturally work up the stakes. If he or she gets off to a slow start, don't be ashamed to drop down to $10NL if the bankroll hits $750 or so. Although the game of poker doesn't change, live play IS different than online play.

This would be an awful mistake, he should start at the lowest limits. It's hard enough moving down limits online but it must be even more difficult after playing higher live.

Originally Posted by iopq

$2/$5 live is NL10

Not always.

There is no direct comparison between live and online. Different mistakes, different games.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by iopq

$2/$5 live is NL10

Not always.

There is no direct comparison between live and online. Different mistakes, different games.

For someone who's considering making the opposite move (playing more live in the coming months), could you elaborate? What sorts of mistakes? How do the games compare?

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by iopq

$2/$5 live is NL10

Not always.

There is no direct comparison between live and online. Different mistakes, different games.

I've found all of the opponent types I've seen live in NL100 as well, except I've marked them all green (fish) or orange (shitregs)

really what changes is more the expectation and "standard" lines, not players
you make it sound like it's a totally different game

Imo it is a very different game. Your opponents' thought processes are radically different and you have to change the way you think about poker to play optimally. Idk if Fnord will agree with me.

Originally Posted by Parasurama

Imo it is a very different game. Your opponents' thought processes are radically different and you have to change the way you think about poker to play optimally. Idk if Fnord will agree with me.

we're not talking about the differences between the online nosebleeds and the live high stakes poker pros

we're talking about people who don't think about anything but their own hand
holy shit, I was in vegas playing for 8 hours with the same guy and ran TERRIBLE in terms of getting decent starting hands
but I got jacks and kings and aces a few times and flopped sets with them

so the only hands I've shown down were TOP SETS
and that same guy brags to the entire table that I play only jacks+ and nothing else
then proceeds to call me down the next hand
but it's ok because I turned a pair and rivered two pair
but holy shit

las vegas obviously way fishier than other places for obvious reasons

Originally Posted by okiman

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by iopq

$2/$5 live is NL10

Not always.

There is no direct comparison between live and online. Different mistakes, different games.

For someone who's considering making the opposite move (playing more live in the coming months), could you elaborate? What sorts of mistakes? How do the games compare?

A lot of the differences between live and online play flow from the fact that it takes a lot of patience to play a very tight, aggressive game live, whereas online, you can do it while doing other things, or you can multitable, or even if you just play one table and pay full attention, you are still going to be seeing twice as many hands.

So live players are more likely to make mistakes that relate to impatience. They are more likely to play trash hands, especially if they are card dead. They are more likely to call raises with hands they should fold, because it tilts them that they aren't going to see another "good" hand for awhile. (This is true both pre-flop and post-flop.)

Live players are also more likely to be drunk, and make bad plays that result from drunkenness. Obviously, we can't know for sure who is drunk online, but most online players are at home and don't have someone who is going to bring them a drink whenever they snap their fingers.

Live players are more likely to be understacked. Because the lowest limits are so much higher live than online, lots of people are underrolled. Further, players get greedy and want to turn a big profit in a short session, so they play at a higher limit than their bankroll allows. They are also much more likely to be gambling scared money-- their paycheck, whatever is in their pocket-- so they make small buy-ins to be "safe". And rebuys are embarrassing, so even players who start out with a full stack fail to replenish their stack when it gets short.

And finally, "scared money" also plays scared. There are lots of players who will cave to almost any aggression because they don't want to lose their stack, even in situations where they likely have the best hand.

Well, that experiment is over. My friend got on and starting playing the $5 S&G's, ran ok for a short time, then ran bad. Then got hooked on the $10 DON's, ran OK for awhile then bad, switched to the $1 S&Gs as his BR dwindled, then got hooked on the $1 30 person S&G's and still was getting his ass handed to him.

I begged and begged for him to post some of the games to FTR or at least send them to me and I would take a look. I know looking at his finish positions on Sharkscope he was playing way too loose. But he never would. Then last night he sent this email-------

I'm telling you man, it is impossible to play online between the anomalies & the idiots. I don't know how you do it & I'm done. I've been keeping track of the all-in/calls & the math is mind blowing. Yes, more than should see the flop. But once the cards are exposed, (it doesn't matter if they should be there or not, they're there & the math is set) the lesser hand wins a disproportionate amount of time (& not by a little) I don't care what people say or think, I've been keeping stats. I should send it to 60 minutes & I'm telling you, it cannot be explained away by saying it's just a few games worth. It's not. It's way too many. Then you have the idiots that will call you down with bottom pair only to catch on the river. It's almost as if they know it's coming because of the amount of beats "programmed in" I'm telling you, it's not me. I know more than most how to calculate all the odds & over several hundred games now, there is definitely something wrong.

Going to the HR to play REAL poker tonight, where I can see all the cards & they cannot be manipulated!!!


LOL, and I only got to take his money a few times.

^ Damn dude, that to me sounds like a player making excuses because he just isn't very good at poker, or at least not as good as he thought he was.

Welcome your Friend to Flop Turn River.

From Live to Online.
It's like comparing a Pinto to a Bugatti Veyron.
Very fast paced compared to Live Play.
The more you play and the better you get the more notes Players have on you.
A very large number of good players and not so good players online. Making the reads that much more important.
No physical Tells to rely on.
Reading players and hands is similar but can be so very different.

I would suggest take it very slow and play Low Limits to get the feel of the difference and get use to the software.

At the same time Observe as many tables at the level you want to play.
Play and Watch.

Not the easiest transition in my opinion.

Good Luck.

Originally Posted by macatac100

Welcome to your friend and good luck. I started in March of 2009 with 1950.00 invested and all I play is MTT. My Bankroll is now 14,000. That was mostly thanks to FTR and reading a lot of post's and article's in the Beginner's Circle. Dissecting this site will help you learn every situation from everyone's, Been There-Done That experience. And page back to older post's. Good Luck and have fun.

Congrats ...................

^^^LOL.

Read the whole thread.

I very much prefer Live to Online play. It just seems so much easier live mainly because of the obvious tells which some people give off!

This thread tilts me. Mods?

at least have him give us a review of the Hard Rock. I have yet to go there, no live BR to play with.

Otherwise, thread fails to deliver.

Threads fine, there's some good stuff in it. DB's friend just obviously chose to ignore any help.

Live players tend not to think about ranges. Sample size is too small and everyone is so horribly unbalanced.

The bad players are unbalanced because they have huge spewing leaks.
The good plaeyrs are unbalanced because they're maximizing value against the bad players.

A really strong player just destroyed the game a couple nights ago playing a VP$IP around 40% with a PFR of around 20% (best guess) 8 handed. This worked because he just was able to take people apart without showing down many hands.