line check

Villain is 29/1/1 over about 70 hands.....

What do you do on the turn? I wonder if I really beat anything at that point....

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP2 ($14.50)
MP3 ($11.80)
CO ($31.35)
Button ($6)
SB ($57.55)
Hero ($56.45)
UTG ($49.25)
UTG+1 ($16.10)
MP1 ($80.60)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, A.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.50, MP1 calls $0.50, 5 folds, Hero raises to $3, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls $2.

Flop: ($6.25) 8, 6, A (2 players)
Hero bets $4.5, MP1 calls $4.50.

Turn: ($15.25) J (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets $9, Hero ......

isnt this a pretty standard float line with like a 99/TT type hand? I would call turn and c/c a 1/2 pot river.

ooooh, i didnt see that he was a 1% pfr. I guess he would limp AK then if its accurate, but the samples size isnt great. idk, i still call turn and reevaluate the river.

bet the turn plz.

Originally Posted by bode

ooooh, i didnt see that he was a 1% pfr. I guess he would limp AK then if its accurate, but the samples size isnt great. idk, i still call turn and reevaluate the river.

exactly what I thought...I didn't think he was silly enough to call the flop bet without an A. That left me only beating AT/A9...

I was wondering about bet/folding the turn too.

I check call, river bricks, I check/call half pot like Bode said.

He has AJ.

Originally Posted by cardsman1992

exactly what I thought...I didn't think he was silly enough to call the flop bet without an A. That left me only beating AT/A9....

I think if his PFR is only 1% he is potentially "dumb" enough to call the flop with a lot of junk.

I would bet the turn for value

Depends how often I see him limp/calling. If he limp/calls everything (i.e. never folds to raise when he limps) then I would bet the turn and bet the river. If he often limp/folds, then I give him credit for a hand after he calls my cbet and check/call the turn and re-eval the river. I'd call any reasonable bet on the river also.

fwiw, i check the flop and raise a turn lead, but this is fr and im sure thats a good line.
Betting the flop and then following up on the turn and checking behind on river is another one.
I dont like the turn play here unless you intend to lead the river for about 2/3 the pot.

the worst but about the second line is that you wont know yoiur beat until opp pushes river over your bet at which point you are pot fucked and have to call anyway. ANd that river line by opp can make you fold sooooo many better hands when he knows youll bet/fold despite pot odds (if your that nitty)

fwiw, i like the firing two salvos line, and checking the river. but we are oop, and we cant "check behind." that puts us in a rough spot if we like to fire the turn.

villain liked his hand enough to call/float us with position. i'm not firing all three streets, but i fully expect to get a decent bet thrown in my face the second i check.

therefore, what about c/r the flop and give up if called? or, lead turn if he checks behind on flop? does that miss any value when he has whiffed the flop? surely, if he liked it enough to call, he would have also bet if we didnt. granted, we wouldnt know that at the time.

I think the c/r flop may be a good line to take, as long as you get away from it on the turn. He threw callable bets out there, though, so with a bloated pot on the flop, I can't lead because I am committed when he pushes. So when he puts his 1/3 to 1/2 pot bet out there on turn after calling a c/r, can you really get away due to odds? River plan at that point?

Miffed, taking your c/c turn, lead river 2/3 line, do you call his push?

c/ring commits you to the pot. Folding after that is dumb making if pointless and bad. bet bet check or bet check/call bet/fold as a line is best.

i guess this is where i look stupid/need help. i suggested the c/r on flop because into a "nittish" player, this would send the largest message of strength. he would fold off anything we beat, and continue to bet only the strongest hands. it also gives a likely free turn card oop (because he's a nit). if it doesnt, i dont call any bet of any size. i'm done. i understand this c/r only gets callers from hands that have us beat, but isnt that the point here...we need info and we would like to put villain to the test and do it as cheaply as possible? worse hands arent calling anything anyway. they check behind allowing us to fire the turn, and they certainly fold to a c/r if they are bluffing or "testing" us...giving us the pot right there.

and, another question, how does a c/r on the flop commit us? we fired $3 pf. if we c/r the flop, say villain throw out $4-$5, we bomb him to $15. thats only $18 of our $56 stack. it leaves us $38 behind. if he calls, we know he is wanting to play for stacks...but we didnt from the beginning. we were only trying to win the hand right there on the flop. if he calls our c/r, pot goes to $36ish. we can still push or fold right there on the turn. if the A or Q hit, we push. if anything hits, we check/fold. i dont care if he tosses out $10...he wants our stack because he is ahead. thats all i needed to know about where i stand. the read was 29/1/1. i dont give these guys a lot of credit for playing draws and TPGK for stacks after a c/r on the flop. we sent our message, and it did/didnt work. se la vie.

where i say i get in trouble, is folding due to odds. what difference does that make? you are c/ring to find out if you are behind. if he is interested, you figure you are behind, and no odds make it right to call with little chance to catch up, right?

my other concern is the bet bet check line. if he throws out a 1/3 or 1/2 pot river bet, we have to call, right? dont we know its likely we are beat there, too? so, why do we HAVE to call? in the b b c line, i will pay off a river, but if i am certain i am beat, i shouldnt.

the answer lies, imo, in which line gets us to a river/showdown the cheapest (which would prolly be c/c c/c c/c, but how weak is that?). we want a cheap showdown, assuming we are ui and confident we are behind (which him continuing on with the hand suggests). but, why not be aggressive in there somewhere in case he's weakish, too.

i am trying to learn from former stupidity, though, so take those thoughts and chew them up if you must. i tend to get overly aggro in these spots and would like to know if it ever sends the message i am intending to send.

btw, if you think my suggestion/thought behind it blows, read my signature. it speaks for itself.

Originally Posted by cardsman1992

I think the c/r flop may be a good line to take, as long as you get away from it on the turn. He threw callable bets out there, though, so with a bloated pot on the flop, I can't lead because I am committed when he pushes. So when he puts his 1/3 to 1/2 pot bet out there on turn after calling a c/r, can you really get away due to odds? River plan at that point?

Miffed, taking your c/c turn, lead river 2/3 line, do you call his push?

you would have to because of pot odds, but you are never making a call when you are ahead. This is why our line has to give us a chance to get away from our hand or give opp an opportunity to declare his hand strength to us.

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Originally Posted by cardsman1992

I think the c/r flop may be a good line to take, as long as you get away from it on the turn. He threw callable bets out there, though, so with a bloated pot on the flop, I can't lead because I am committed when he pushes. So when he puts his 1/3 to 1/2 pot bet out there on turn after calling a c/r, can you really get away due to odds? River plan at that point?

Miffed, taking your c/c turn, lead river 2/3 line, do you call his push?

you would have to because of pot odds, but you are never making a call when you are ahead. This is why our line has to give us a chance to get away from our hand or give opp an opportunity to declare his hand strength to us.

confused. if we have to call his push, but we want to take a line that allows us to get away, why would we bet the river? ...if we cant get away from a push.

Originally Posted by Chopper

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Originally Posted by cardsman1992

I think the c/r flop may be a good line to take, as long as you get away from it on the turn. He threw callable bets out there, though, so with a bloated pot on the flop, I can't lead because I am committed when he pushes. So when he puts his 1/3 to 1/2 pot bet out there on turn after calling a c/r, can you really get away due to odds? River plan at that point?

Miffed, taking your c/c turn, lead river 2/3 line, do you call his push?

you would have to because of pot odds, but you are never making a call when you are ahead. This is why our line has to give us a chance to get away from our hand or give opp an opportunity to declare his hand strength to us.

confused. if we have to call his push, but we want to take a line that allows us to get away, why would we bet the river? ...if we cant get away from a push.

im an idiot

you can fold to a river push if we do the betting.

no probs. like i said, i'm confused. i didnt know if it was your post or mine...lol. were both idiots.