Limping

Are there any hard and fast rules on when you should/shouldn't?

When do you limp?

very rarely

Originally Posted by EasyPoker

When do you limp?

Never, if we're talking about open-limping. Limping behind is another story. You can limp behind in LP with hands that play well multi-way and have good implied odds.

If you give your opinion on limping we'll help more fyi

Personally, I do understand the idea that you do not open limp, and you can raise hands like small pocket pairs, suited aces or suited connectors in LP to steal blinds and/or take the pot of the flop with a c-bet.

What I don't get with guys whose VPIP/PFR stats are super close, is that it means they hardly ever CALL a raise, right? So what? Do they never call a raise with suited connectors or small PP in position?

they 3bet... position is power

Originally Posted by daviddem

I do understand the idea that you do not open limp

I don't understand why it's so hard to comprehend. Why play passive? Open limping is only slightly profitable in loose-passive nano-limit games... but that's it unless you're trying to get cute with a big pair. You raise to shut out shit hands from getting in cheap. Raise, hit a hand, value bet, profit. <--- micro-stakes in a nutshell

Originally Posted by OhioRounder

Originally Posted by daviddem

I do understand the idea that you do not open limp

I don't understand why it's so hard to comprehend. Why play passive? Open limping is only slightly profitable in loose-passive nano-limit games... but that's it unless you're trying to get cute with a big pair. You raise to shut out shit hands from getting in cheap. Raise, hit a hand, value bet, profit. <--- micro-stakes in a nutshell

Did you misread? I said I do understand.

they 3bet... position is power

I thought SC's and small PP's benefited from big implied odds, so that calling a raise with them IP was +EV if villain's stack size justifies it? In that recent squeezing thread, I think it was mentioned that hands like JT could be good to 3-bet with in the blinds, but better off with a call IP. Or did I misunderstand something?

So, since the VPIP and PFR of a 20/17 are not identical, which 3% of hands do they call with then? Are they limping behind in multiway limped pots or are they calling a raise against one or two opps?

@Daviddem - Uhhh it depends? We can't tell you what 3% they are limping with or calling with. Firstly because it's entirely situational. Secondly, the situation might appear different to different individuals, thus altering what they believe is correct.

Suited connectors, pairs, suited gappers, etc all do benefit from implied odds, and if given the correct implied odds (situation), calling an open with them can very much so be +EV. Just as sometimes it's correct to fold them, and sometimes correct to 3bet them. It all depends on the situation. Some people won't understand this, and will choose to fold them, some people will play them, but do so incorrectly.

also remember that +EV does not mean the most +EV, calling with a low suited connector can be +EV but maybe raising with it is more +EV because you pick up the pot pre sometimes, hit sometimes, bluff sometimes and merge your 3betting range so you get more monies with your aces next time.

Originally Posted by daviddem

Did you misread? I said I do understand.

Yep, sorry dude. Maybe I should ground myself from the BC for a week.

it depends. Open limping can be profitable in some games. Limping behind most definitely can be. So can isolating with these same limp-behind hands. Look at the players, the dynamics, etc. No absolutes.

It'd be great that some guys with close VPIP/PFR stats chime in a few hands where they limped behind or flatted a raise, along with their thought process for doing so in that particular situation.

Also some examples where noobs would just limp behind or flat but where the better play is to raise or fold would help.

Open limping in certain spots is definitely enabling me to play more hands, ergo, win more pots.

It's helping me beat 4nl on a soft Euro site atm.

win mannies not potss

Originally Posted by EasyPoker

Open limping in certain spots is definitely enabling me to play more hands, ergo, win more pots.

The conclusion does not follow from its premises.

Also, the best reply in this thread is kminds.

That's fine you continue to learn how to play the $4NL game your way and win. I could teach my 5 year old how to beat $4NL, but no chance in hell could he learn anything more. You keep doing that, and you will fall off this forum and away from poker like thousands of others before you, or you could start to learn how to beat the game at any stakes. I can guarantee that I have 20,000 players in my database with over 5K hands and not one of those that open limps is a winning player over that many hands.

Originally Posted by JKDS

The conclusion does not follow from its premises.

Also, the best reply in this thread is kminds.

I guess so, cos after jyms's last response, I don't think I'll ever open limp again.

I'd just like to add though, fwiw, I did say "in certain spots"...and I think those spots would occur probably 1/30 hands...maybe that's still too much though...I dunno.

Well, what spots would you say it would be profitable to open limp and why? You dont seem like the kind of person who is going to take "dont open limp" as an acceptable answer, so lets debate the point.

I didn't realize stuff like this required paragraphs worth of explanation for it to sink in.

don't do it, it's bad play. Not every 30 hands, not every 100 hands, not ever.

rarely even limp behind.

I think those spots would occur probably 1/30 hands

lol 1/30 is a ton. In my mind open limping is never ever part of a game plan, I see zero reason for it to be, but instead of making yourself rules and manuals think about the 'why?' aspect.

If you limp in EP for 1bb and someone raises from the button do you call or fold? If you fold he makes money, if you call it was almost certainly better that you had raised because you pick up the pot when he is no longer interested and further define his hand by his reaction to your raise. If you limp, call a raise and then hit and stack him think about whether the same thing would have happened if you had open raised?

every situation is unique so think of the 'why?'. If some idiot behind you is playing 100/100 then sure, limp 45s because if you raise he will 3bet you and you have to fold and your implied odds are huge calling a single bet after you limp. It is much easier to THINK about what you are doing then trying to get a bunch of people to yell rules to you on a forum.

All comments noted, you can lock this now tbh.

Originally Posted by speedcake

I didn't realize stuff like this required paragraphs worth of explanation for it to sink in.

don't do it, it's bad play. Not every 30 hands, not every 100 hands, not ever.

rarely even limp behind.

When you're sitting at a table that regularly sees 6+ people to the flop, it's definitely okay to limp behind with hands that love multi-way action, and the more you have position and the less likely somebody's going to put in a raise, the wider the range that can be limped behind imo. As soon as somebody who likes to raise big when there's limpers sits down to your left, then you immediately adjust to the new circumstances.

Yes, online at 25NL, probably even 10NL, this kind of table is pretty rare! But walk into any casino and chances are their 1-2 NL game will often resemble what I just described.

I'm coming around to the idea though that even at this type of loose/passive table, if you're opening the pot, you might as well do it for a raise.

I've just played a session for literally less than an hour on a Euro donk site where I pretty much raised every hand i intended to play (as per the suggestion by the majority) and made about 500bb by the end. No word of a lie.

I just kept stacking these morons when my hands hit.

Originally Posted by EasyPoker

I've just played a session for literally less than an hour on a Euro donk site where I pretty much raised every hand i intended to play (as per the suggestion by the majority) and made about 500bb by the end. No word of a lie.

I just kept stacking these morons when my hands hit.

omg that's definitely the holy grail of poker

Originally Posted by eugmac

omg that's definitely the holy grail of poker

lI was just confirming that these guys' advice was bang on raising every hand (rather than occasionally open limping) worked very well.

since this is the beginners circle, other beginners will read it and hopefully not do what I was doing

you're hilarious btw

[x] results oriented thinking itt

{Locked}

Getting a bit off topic so I'm just going to stop it here.