Limp, Big Raise

This move has taken over the NL$25 tables. How do you react to this?

Me: AJo on the button.
Four limpers to me.
I raise 4x, $1 to go.
One of the limpers raises 32x, to $8.
?????
I fold.

Do they just think I'm stealing from the button?
This limp-raise is super annoying to me. It's like a pre-flop check-raise. What do you put a person like this on? Premium cards? A middle pair?

Depends. Have you tried to steal pots around this player before, making him aware of your moves and thinking this was just another steal? I know that I will once in a while limp with a premium hand and then reraise.

I've seen bad players do this with a wide range of hands which includes any pair. Anyways, it's a clear fold even if you suspect the person doesn't have a very strong hand.

limp reraise says big pp to me.. even if they are bluffing, they dont know when to stop and are just as likely to come over the top if you then raise them.. at which point its hard to play back because you cant risk that they dont have AA, KK.. you have to fold..

as for whether they think you are stealing pots.. well... i really dont think that many NL$25 players would notice that anyway, maybe one player at the table would.

In my experience, players that do this have either AA/KK or some weakish hand like AT or KQ that they did not want to raise with, but are now re-raising you out of spite. In general, I'll give credit for a big pair to the first or second limper. After that, I'm starting to lean more towards a 'spite raise'. However, with only AJ, I'll agree with dsaxton that it's a clear fold.

hi im george257

i would say that if he was the last player to act he would be trying to steal and if he had a lot of money he can afford to steal it,but if not he would have had a good hand but if you did to you should have calledhope i helped.

george257

Originally Posted by EasyT

This move has taken over the NL$25 tables. How do you react to this?

Me: AJo on the button.
Four limpers to me.
I raise 4x, $1 to go.
One of the limpers raises 32x, to $8.
?????
I fold.

Do they just think I'm stealing from the button?
This limp-raise is super annoying to me. It's like a pre-flop check-raise. What do you put a person like this on? Premium cards? A middle pair?

In my experience, a limp reraise almost always means pocket pair. The earlier their position the bigger the pair.

Many times players will limp w/ small pp hoping to flop a set, you raise them and then they decide their willing to race or win it there. If they're UTG however, they might be trapping.

It of course depends on the player and also your table reputation. If you've been raising on the button constantly, the person might think you're full of it. If that person is acting right before you, then I may consider pushing with AJ to make them let go of their junk. There's no way they knew that you or the blinds would have raised so obviously their hand wasn't strong enough to raise in the first place.

At that level he has only one of three hands AA kk QQ. (although he mite be wanting to gamble with a pp especially if short stacked) Im not convinced if he has a deep stack hes so willing to gamble preflop.
Classic fishy-like limp with a top hand in early position hope for a later reraise so he can go over the top. I see this so often especiialy if you've been raising the pot quite a bit with good hands or position.
Guarenteed fold. I wouldnt take the risk that i was behind in the hand.

In reading Doyle Brunson's SuperSystem ... this is how he plays big PP in early position. As miffed said, in early position, just call in hopes that someone raises thus allowing you to come over top.

Originally Posted by mdwav

In my experience, players that do this have either AA/KK or some weakish hand like AT or KQ that they did not want to raise with, but are now re-raising you out of spite. In general, I'll give credit for a big pair to the first or second limper. After that, I'm starting to lean more towards a 'spite raise'. However, with only AJ, I'll agree with dsaxton that it's a clear fold.

This is my take on it too. Obviously I'm folding here. Though I personally am not limping my AA/KK ever from any position on a NL25 table. You're just asking for a 6-way limped flop.

I'm worried that this fold is giving the whole table license to run over my raises? Suppose this happens twice in an hour. After the second time, am I forced to tighten up and only raise with truly premium hands from all positions?

I usually do raise ~4x into an unraised pot from the button unless I'm folding. I'm not saying that I play any old crap from the button, but that I'm generally not limping from the button. So this might lead people to the impression that I'm stealing...which perhaps not exactly un-true. Though it's not like I believe I'll take it down with a 4x raise with 4 limpers. It's more like: "I want to know if you really have a hand, I'm not letting the blinds in for free, and I'm going to juice this pot because I'm more likely to win this hand because of my position."

Am I wrong to be raising this particular hand (AJo on the button)? Should my raise be larger than 4x to express 'seriousness'? Should I make an effort not to raise from the button more than 2 times in 4 orbits? What general principles do you use when playing from the button?

Thanks!

EasyT

Either the guy has been reading Doyle and thinks that Doyle's tactics are correct on a fishy low-limit table, or he's scared that a decent sized raise will make everyone else fold and he values the chance to play his KK more than the chance that it'll earn him just the blinds.

OR he acknowledges he's playing on an aggressive table and can be almost sure of getting a pre-flop raise out of someone else, and is increasing the pot size this way. OR he's figured out that solid, by-the-book players will be annoyed and confounded by his new tactic

Originally Posted by biondino

OR he's figured out that solid, by-the-book players will be annoyed and confounded by his new tactic

which might work in his favour.

Originally Posted by EasyT

Do they just think I'm stealing from the button?
This limp-raise is super annoying to me. It's like a pre-flop check-raise. What do you put a person like this on? Premium cards? A middle pair?

I think there are several things to consider.

1. Is there some sort of pattern in your betting that is giving away the strength of your hand? Are you betting the same amount whether you have AA or AJ on the button?

This is probably only important if the player doing the reraising is aware/solid.

2. Is the player doing the limp-reraise a solid player or a donkey?

I think a solid player is more likely to limp-reraise with big pairs. But a solid player is also more likely to pick up on your preflop betting patterns and reraise based on your possible weakness.

A donkey could have anything.

3. Is the same player repeatedly doing the limp-reraise in a short period of time? Or did he do it 2-4 orbits in a row when you raise from the button?

If so, I might give him credit for a hand and fold the first 2 times, but I would probably reraise all-in on the 3rd time, especially if I had a slightly bigger hand like AK. He would most likely fold and you will have profited from the situation. If not, you have outs and will find out what kind of hand he is making this move with.

You could also wait for him to run himself into your big pair ... but I think this would probably take too long.

i would not take it personally when someone re-raises with AA or KK, which is clearly the case here. they are not out to "get" you, they are simply betting their hand. it has nothing to do with you, other than the fact that you happened to be the one to trigger their trap. fold and get out of it before you lose any more chips, and say thanks for the obvious warning.

ChezJ