Learn this game or go back to where i came from. Need advice

Hi FTR,
Cliffs Notes: Should hero keep plugging away and try to learn NL or should he go back to Limit where he was winning decent money. Hero likes to play NL a lot more than limit though.

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I havent posted here in a while but i need your advice again. I learned Limit mostly from reading SSH and FTR posts and was doing fine at the limits i was playing (moving from 2-4 to 9-18 b&M). After our B&M limit games dried up, I moved to NL 3 months back.
So far I have played 300 hours of NL @ B&M.
100$ Buyin - 83 hours +$970
300$ buyin - 220 hours -$436
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Net: 506$ in about 300 hours...PATHETIC

Now, most of these hours in the begining I was learning NL and making fundamental mistakes (overplaying AK, c-betting where shouldnt, stacking off with 1 pair, stacking off against flushes etc, some bad runs ). Now that I have gotten the hang of it, I feel like I have improved a lot in the past 3 months but still feel frustrated time to time. Also even though i feel I have learnt a lot, my results dont reflect that.

arguments in sticking to NL:
1) I love this game a lot more than Limit. I never need to read magazines while playing this game and getting cold run of cards. just watching the action makes it interesting enough for me.
2) Variance is lower.
3) If I eventually get this game, then I will make a lot of money + not getting crazy with downswings that are so common in limit.

Arguments for quitting:
1) I am losing money (if you consider time value of money). If i was playing 4-8 ----- 6-12 i would have won at least 3-4 grand playing limit.
2) Maybe I will never get this game no matter how hard i try.

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1) Can a winning limit player supposedly NEVER get this game no matter how hard he tries.

2) Should a player keep plugging away learning a game where as he could be making money if he was playing a different game. in short, should winning money be more important than playing a game that i actually enjoy a lot more.

Do you play poker to make money or for a hobby?

NLHE has a lot more room for you to make more money at the same stakes as you improve.

I think you're being too results oriented here.

Also, Online and Live NLHE are VERY VERY VERY different games.

I have a full time job and play poker about 120 hours a month exclusively live. Its more like a supplemental income + hobby. Thats why losing streaks dont bother me, but just irritates me because i cant see the end of the tunnel in NL yet. I started winning in Limit right away and the downswings came far down the line. By that time i had already learnt about variance, downswings etc.

I have played about 1300 hours in Live in last year and a half and up over 12 grand (not much by most of FTR standards i know, but still not bad in my own eyes).

But in NL, it seems like i cant see the end of the tunnel where i finally arrive and can say "aha! i get this game now !!"

Originally Posted by pokerlearner

But in NL, it seems like i cant see the end of the tunnel where i finally arrive and can say "aha! i get this game now !!" :

Have you read Ed's book?

Best advice ever for beating small/mediumish live games:

Very few players drive 30+ min to the Casino to fold most of their hands all day.

Tommy writes about learning to fold enough to support his food and rent habbit in one of his essays.

Hi Fnord,
thanks a lot for your reply. Yes I have read Ed's book but NL is complex. So applying it little by little. Also have plugged a lot of leaks in the past few weeks. So hopefully I am on my way. Yes, I have read every single article in Tommy's website and loved most of them. I read the article you mentioned above.

I guess the bottomline is that NL is a far more complex game than limit. More variables in play (my image, my opponents image, my stack size, my opponents stack size, implied odds, fold equity etc etc). Compared to that, in limit all i needed to know was pot odds and pot equity and I was good (for being an average winning player that is). I was never expert enough to indivudually exploit opponents as you and other great players here in FTR seem to do.

Thanks again for your replies. I have told myself that no matter what happens, I am going to stick to the plan and play at least 1000 hours of NL live and then reevaluate if the situation doesnt change.

How about a stickie by you similiar to "why you suck at limit HE" that applies to NL . Would you do it if you had some spare time sometime for us NL newbies here in FTR.

Originally Posted by pokerlearner

How about a stickie by you similiar to "why you suck at limit HE" that applies to NL . Would you do it if you had some spare time sometime for us NL newbies here in FTR.

It would pretty much have one line:

You're not very good at reading hands.

1)Hero should take a break; clear his head.

2) Ask himself why he plays and what he hopes to achieve from poker.

3) Once done he needs to reread some hands, post, ask feedback, restudy some books.

4) Hero should then re-assess the situation and see if he does want to continue to give NLHE a shot; if he wants to try something different and give O8 a whirl, or return to LHE if doing so helps him regain confidence.

5) Hero needs to find an AWESOME Halloween party to go to and get tanked with young girls (legal) play some beirut/flipcup and live life to the fullest.

Originally Posted by WhooFleuryScores

1)Hero should take a break; clear his head.

2) Ask himself why he plays and what he hopes to achieve from poker.

3) Once done he needs to reread some hands, post, ask feedback, restudy some books.

4) Hero should then re-assess the situation and see if he does want to continue to give NLHE a shot; if he wants to try something different and give O8 a whirl, or return to LHE if doing so helps him regain confidence.

5) Hero needs to find an AWESOME Halloween party to go to and get tanked with young girls (legal) play some beirut/flipcup and live life to the fullest.

LOL. Thanks for the funny post . Made me laugh hard ( colleague next door wondering whats up with me !!)

I am sticking with the plan to keep playing nL and trying to learn it. I am fully rolled for 300NL and overrolled for 100NL. My immediate goal is to play 1000 hours of NL and hopefully come up +ve and learn the game by that time.

Its funny that even after losing big pots or losing 3 days in a row in NL, i still feel much pleasant/happier in general about poker. Whereas, when i was making money in Limit, i still would be in general pissed off about life. weird!!

I love the NL game in general. I just hope to become good at it someday, sooner than later i suppose. Between 8-9 hours a day at work and 4-5 hours a day at poker, thats all there is to my life. If I keep losing at this game, I might as well shoot myself LOL

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by pokerlearner

How about a stickie by you similiar to "why you suck at limit HE" that applies to NL . Would you do it if you had some spare time sometime for us NL newbies here in FTR.

It would pretty much have one line:

You're not very good at reading hands.

No, I am serious Fnord. Maybe if enough number of people here at FTR request you, when you have some spare time, you can come up with a sticky to help us with our NL game.

Originally Posted by pokerlearner

No, I am serious Fnord.

I was being dead serious.

http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/i...sky0806-1.html

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by pokerlearner

No, I am serious Fnord.

I was being dead serious.

http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/i...sky0806-1.html

Yes, it took me a while to figure it out but after watching a few weeks at B&M NL i realised that people playing ABC Tag poker are in for some surprise in NL. we are predictable and our opponents call 4-5x bb raises because they know that if they flop 2 pair or some great flop, they can bust us easily.

Hand reading has to be very important then to survive those situations.


wow, i am going to print it out and paste on my wall at home. Awesome article. I read the magazines on the site but somehow missed it. Thanks a lot.

It's not just knowing when to get away from a hand. That may even be over-rated.

It's also knowing when lukewarm hand is good for an extra bet or when you can push someone off of something (less applicable to small stakes live and hot action.)

edit: Actually what I do a lot is put someone on air, then make a little poke to get them off of it. Getting someone off of a hand is hard, but getting them off of nothing is easy when you know what to look for.

Great NLHE players are capable of both getting away from luke-warm hands and felting them.

SHLHE teaches you to focus on winning nice big bloated pots and getting extra value out of routine hands. NLHE often isn't about winning pots as much as it is about getting the best of all of the money behind.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Have you read Ed's book?

Can you post a link, I did a search and it came up with TommyAngelo?

Mr. Happy:
for NLTAP http://www.amazon.com/No-Limit-Hold-...e=UTF8&s=books

For Tommy : http://www.tommyangelo.com/articles/folding.htm
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Fnord, yes knowing when a marginal hand is good and when its not is indeed a great skill. I mean when you call down a big bet with a marginal hand knowing that its good, requires great stomach and amazing read. (note: the fish do it by acting as calling station...."I knew you had AK and my pair of 3s was good )


Live, you can see player's faces, see their action, look for tells such as if he suddenly starts chattering on and on (usually strong hands), calling your bet instantly (usually drawing) etc etc. Online it is like driving blind. heheh at least for me. I have so much respect for guys who kill the games online.