KK vs. UTG limper + checkraise

Originally Posted by Carroters

You absolutely do not have to decide if you're stacking off when you call this flop.

A fish will extremely frequently define his range on the turn/river by betting less with air and marginal value hands that are "raising for info" etc on the flop and hammering the nuts. Making your decision for your stack before you get a ton more info on a later street is a retarded mistake unless you for some reason know he's going to bet turn and river large regardless of what he has; we have no reason at all to assume this.

Can't imagine ever folding this flop for this price since lesser pairs are easily possible as well as the odd bluff.

^^^ You don't have to fold or shove on the flop as I said before if you don't think he will call a shove with worse.

However I maintain that when you call this flop, you have to be prepared to the possibility of having to get your stack in, because if opp wants to do that he can do it with two suck-in 40% pot sized bets on the turn and river, and you won't be able to refuse these odds. That's pretty much what happened.

Limp calling pre, min raising dry flop to set up stacks is a classic set line with a small PP, correct me if I am wrong. imo he is much less likely to limp/call QQ, JJ or even TT preflop. Not impossible if he is really bad, but you at least have to seriously discount these. Plus if he raised the flop with any of that, he is going to keep firing unless overcards show up on the turn or river. Limp/calling pre and raising the flop with A9 is also really bad.

Originally Posted by Carroters

You get such a great price on the turn and river and he's also defined his hand as somewhat more likely to be marginal than the nuts given his shitty sizing. Folding at any point given these odds would be pretty horrible.

I'll give you that his sizing is really crap, and if he did indeed have a set/boat, he miserably failed to get his stack in by the river. But on the flop, we don't know that yet.

In the end, if we are ahead, I see it as a marginal spot and I still don't mind folding until we get better reads.