KK vs. AA

I've had enough of this ****. I'm going to fold them preflop.

** Game ID 580473704 starting - 2005-11-17 01:32:09
** Get Back [Hold 'em] (0.25|0.50 No Limit - Cash Game) Real Money

- johnny291281 sitting in seat 1 with $57.00
- snappit sitting in seat 2 with $45.70 [Dealer]
- Acejuls sitting in seat 3 with $59.55
- smoothcut sitting in seat 4 with $49.50
- PnutPancake sitting in seat 5 with $185.79
- vegus sitting in seat 6 with $82.10
- ANGRYAA sitting in seat 7 with $33.70
- MastaAces sitting in seat 8 with $23.45
- Rich1 sitting in seat 9 with $47.80
- Madoek sitting in seat 10 with $79.05

Acejuls posted the small blind - $0.25
smoothcut posted the big blind - $0.50
** Dealing card to johnny291281: King of Diamonds, King of Spades
PnutPancake folded
vegus folded
ANGRYAA called - $0.50
MastaAces folded
Rich1 folded
Madoek folded
johnny291281 raised - $2.00
snappit raised - $6.00
Acejuls folded
smoothcut folded
ANGRYAA folded
johnny291281 called - $6.00

** Dealing the flop: 3 of Clubs, 5 of Spades, Queen of Diamonds
johnny291281 checked
snappit bet - $4.50
johnny291281 called - $4.50

** Dealing the turn: 4 of Hearts
johnny291281 checked
snappit bet - $4.00
johnny291281 raised - $12.00
snappit raised - $20.00
johnny291281 called - $20.00

** Dealing the river: 5 of Hearts
johnny291281 bet - $26.00
snappit went all-in - $15.20
snappit shows: Ace of Hearts, Ace of Spades
snappit wins $89.65 from the main pot


End of game 580473704


** Game ID 580493753 starting - 2005-11-17 01:52:50
** Beyond The Sea [Hold 'em] (0.25|0.50 No Limit - Cash Game) Real Money

- myxxtt sitting in seat 1 with $4.00 [Dealer]
- Lager sitting in seat 2 with $56.75 [Sitting out]
- 77down sitting in seat 3 with $38.30
- thesheikster sitting in seat 4 with $4.55
- Rich1 sitting in seat 5 with $35.45
- kusettaja232 sitting in seat 6 with $45.40
- roglaystad sitting in seat 7 with $51.55
- weave2383 sitting in seat 8 with $76.75
- MastaAces sitting in seat 9 with $16.15
- johnny291281 sitting in seat 10 with $47.50

77down posted the small blind - $0.25
thesheikster posted the big blind - $0.50
** Dealing card to johnny291281: King of Clubs, King of Spades
Rich1 folded
kusettaja232 folded
roglaystad folded
weave2383 called - $0.50
MastaAces raised - $2.00
myxxtt reconnected
johnny291281 raised - $5.00
myxxtt folded
77down folded
thesheikster folded
weave2383 raised - $18.50
MastaAces folded
johnny291281 called - $18.50

** Dealing the flop: 5 of Diamonds, 10 of Spades, Ace of Diamonds
weave2383 checked
johnny291281 bet - $12.00
weave2383 raised - $24.00
johnny291281 went all-in - $17.00
weave2383 called - $29.00
weave2383 shows: Ace of Clubs, Ace of Spades

** Dealing the turn: 9 of Spades

** Dealing the river: 4 of Spades
weave2383 wins $94.75 from the main pot

End of game 580493753

NB: I know my play sucked too. First hand is reasonable, second is just ridiculous. I was hoping for QQ/KK or something, I don't know. Tilt move. I ended the night 200$ up btw, so variance rules

Here we go again...

Originally Posted by johnny_fish

I've had enough of this ****. I'm going to fold them preflop.

<snip>

I ended the night 200$ up btw, so variance rules

Except when your strong hands don't win, of course.

Rants go in bad beat section. Also you need to be ALL IN preflop in both these hands otherwise you're playing KK / AA wrong. That is all.

I don't subscribe to the theory that you must ALWAYS raise and reraise to infinity pre-flop with KK, i think many times when you 3-bet/4-bet preflop you are allowing a worse hand to escape. I am aware that this is blasphemy around these parts

Having said that, on the first hand I think you need to get the money in on the early streets, i dont know why you are calling the flop and turn. Your hand isn't likely to improve.

_________________________
Jimmy Mac

Originally Posted by Jimmy Mac

I don't subscribe to the theory that you must ALWAYS raise and reraise to infinity pre-flop with KK, i think many times when you 3-bet/4-bet preflop you are allowing a worse hand to escape. I am aware that this is blasphemy around these parts

This is why I set up a bad image, so that as little as KQ suited or a mid pocket will call when I push.

Originally Posted by allLiving

you need to be ALL IN preflop in both these hands otherwise you're playing KK / AA wrong.

Why is this? I thought it would be more profitable to allow someone to catch up in seeing a flop. Most of the time when when KQ hits top pair, they think they're ahead.

Originally Posted by allLiving

Rants go in bad beat section. Also you need to be ALL IN preflop in both these hands otherwise you're playing KK / AA wrong. That is all.

Yup. Unless you are VERY deep stacked.

Originally Posted by Jimmy Mac

I don't subscribe to the theory that you must ALWAYS raise and reraise to infinity pre-flop with KK, i think many times when you 3-bet/4-bet preflop you are allowing a worse hand to escape. I am aware that this is blasphemy around these parts

In both cases he was re-raised before the flop and opted to smooth call. With AA and KK you want to get in as much money pre-flop as you can. The re-raises allowed him to do that. Why wait until the flop "so they can catch something" when they have shown a willingness to put money in before then?? You also have to remember that hands like JJ, QQ and KK could every well be scared of the flop if an over(s) come. If you have AA and someone has QQ, you're going to have an easier time getting money out of them pre-flop than on a flop such as K,A.7...

At lower limits I think betting anything less than 3 BB with AA or KK is generally a mistake. You do want to push out worse hands and hope to maybe get 1-2 callers. If you don't let worse hands get out then you're giving them a chance to catch up and become better hands than yours. You don't want to be playing AA or KK multi-way.

STOP THE ****'N AA VS KK THREADS. THE CORRECT WAY TO PLAY KK VS AA IS ALL IN, YOU GO BROKE? YOU MADE THE CORRECT PLAY

"Cry me a river."

Originally Posted by allLiving

Rants go in bad beat section. Also you need to be ALL IN preflop in both these hands otherwise you're playing KK / AA wrong. That is all.

that cracked me

Originally Posted by TalentedTom

STOP THE ****'N AA VS KK THREADS. THE CORRECT WAY TO PLAY KK VS AA IS ALL IN, YOU GO BROKE? YOU MADE THE CORRECT PLAY

that was like "FATALITY" to me ...

Anyone can see why ?

You raised them PF and they reraised you HARD. At what point are you going to put them on AA…only if they go AI after your reraise? Make a decision dude. You can lay it down there. <shrug>

This is not a bad beat post. Those suck.

To conclude, my new strategy for KK (first I'll raise or reraise of course):

-All-in by deep stack: fold.
-All-in by short stack or deep stack with loose read: call.
-Small reraise by short stack: call to trap QQ/JJ/AK, or reraise AI immediately.
-Small reraise by deep stack: fold or call for set value if odds are good.

Enough people will go all-in against your KK with QQ, JJ, AKs, AK and even AQs that pushing with KK is profitable every time (preflop).

Originally Posted by cryptyk

Enough people will go all-in against your KK with QQ, JJ, AKs, AK and even AQs that pushing with KK is profitable every time (preflop).

Obviously it depends on game level. I've played 10, 20 and 50NL at Prima so far. At 10 and 20 I happily go all-in. Not at 50 anymore though.