KidPoker's Wacky Call--The Sequel

This post involves an interesting hand I played a couple of days ago while killing time in a two-table Sit & Go tournament. I'm posting this hand for two reasons. The first is that I would like to hear from a few advanced players about how they would have played this pot. The second is to demonstrate to players who are newish to the game that certains pots contain very subtle nuances that may not seem obvious at first glance. So, hope you enjoy and lemme' know.

P.S. to the Intro: Sorry if this post is longer than both volumes of "The Wealth of Nations".

So, here's the backround. I'm killing time in a $50 sit & go on PS before philosophy class on Tues. We're midway through the second level (blinds $15/30) and I'm comfortably situated w/ $2400 chips or so. The player immediately to my right was sitting on a stack of $1300 or so and was generally pretty awful. It became apparent to me that this player had roughly the poker I.Q. of a waffle iron. He made erratic and illogical bets with little regard for value or pot size and was suprisingly timid when pushed. This player will be henceforward refered to as WaffleIron, or WI for short.

With one limper, the action gets folded around to WI in the cutoff who makes a raise of 4x the BB ($120). I've got the button and am fortunate enough to get dealt 43, both clubs. For most this would seem like an attomatic fold, but being the silly, arrogant KidPoker I am, I decided to take a flop. My reasoning is this--I've got position on this player and am pretty certain I can outplay him on the flop. Secondly, if I call, the early position limper will probably come too, creating an OK sized pot for a hand of texture. There is of course also the possibilty that I will flop huge to my hand and win a monster pot off either the limper or my pal WI. So, anyway, I call and so does the limper.

The flop comes down J25 rainbow. Well, this wasn't exactly the monster flop I had envisioned, but then again it could be worse. After all, I am open-ended to the nuts which leaves me with a variety of creative plays I can employ if I sense weakness. Unfortunately and to my disgust, when checked to him WI decides to move in for all of his chips (roughly $1100 or so).

Well, this is most definately bizzare. I couldn't for the life of me imagine what hand would merit this play from ole' WaffleIron. From his previous play, I knew that he would not make this play with a J or probably any pair 5's or higher. He would definately try to extract some kind of value from his hand--even though it would certainly be in his own cooky way. It dawned on me that WI might hold something like AK or AQ, figuring that a jack probably helped neither of us and he could just pick up a nice pot by moving in right there. If this was the case, it would bring an entirely new element to this hand. That would mean that not only would any A or 6 win me the pot, but also any 4 or 3 might just be good too.

Now, by my estimation I have at least 8, but maybe up to 13 outs. Those being any of the three remaining A's (assuming one might be dead in WI's hand) any of the four 6's, or any of the three remaining 3 and 4's. I go from behind a 3:1 dog, a prohibitive favorite for calling in this spot to almost being, as Mike Sexton would say, in a coinflip for the pot.

The only problem here is the pot size. There is at this point roughly $1500 in the pot, but I would have to call off about half of my remaining $2300. Right now, I'm only getting 1.5:1 to call, which fankly isn't super-duper. I can't imagine that the limper would call here with an all-in raise and a call behind him--even with a J--so the pot's prolly not gonna' get bigger. Here's where you experienced players come in. Given my stack and odds, how would you proceed (being almost certain that your opponent held AK or AQ or something of that nature)? How would you apply your tournament theory to this call?

Well, after taking all this into consideration and knowing that it probably was a Mensa caliber play, I went ahead and called. The limper quickly folded and WI turned over the AT of clubs. I was happy he held what I had suspected, but still suspended in trepidation. The turn was a blank and the river was a 3, thus shipping me a $2600 pot with a pair of 3's.

I don't even know if I LOVE my play. I probably could have been patient and busted WI on a later hand knowing his amentia worthy poker play. But still I am open to any suggestions and or comments about his play.

As I said earlier, this play is just an example of the many subtle complexities a hand can take on. For anyone who is new to the game, just remeber that it's important to analyze a big hand from every possible angle. Try to consider all of your opponents prior moves and take into consideration all of the posibilites. But most importantly, take your time. Quick call are usually bad ones. If you use those tools you find yourself making the correct laydown or call. Then again, you could be like KidPoker and make a "questionable call" at best.

So, that's it. Thanks for reading and thanks for your contributions and again appologies for the oppressive length on this post.

Best

I FOLD. I don't know how you had such a great read on him so early in tourny- it was less than 20 hands if you were still in level 2. Had you played other games with the same player? Second, if you had him pegged that well, you could easily wait for a better spot to snap him off.

Essentially, you called off half of your stack on a draw/coin flip which is a sure way to go broke in a tournament. On the other hand, such calculated risks are what helped you get a nice stack and eliminate the dude from the game.

He couldn't know that the A wouldn't help him but was there a flush or backdoor flush possible? If it were later in the game, you were justified in going with the coinflip. Also, when faced with the coinflip situation, I like to be the first one to put my money in the pot.

Last but not least, the early limper could be a concern. Is he slowplaying AA, KK or QQ? Did he hit a low set and just waiting for WI and you to make the pot bigger?

Originally Posted by SteveO

I FOLD. I don't know how you had such a great read on him so early in tourny-

Read or no read, did you really think your 43s was the hand to teach this guy a lesson with?

I fold pre-flop and post-flop. Then I'd pick my cards up from the muck pile and fold them again. Just to show how bad my hand is.

I voted fold, and agree with most of what SteveO said.

Also I think with your chips stack, losing the pot is more painful than winning it - it's still early enough that your chip lead wouldn't be all that much of an edge, but if you pick up AA with a legit chance to double up next hand (assuming you lose) you're kicking yourself for giving away all those chips.

But... you had your read and you trusted it, hard to knock that.

Thanks, Steve-O for your reply. I considered this play, as you suggested, a calculated risk. I figured that if I did loose those 1100 chips I would still not be in dire straights. With the blinds as small as they were, I figured I would still have time to rebuild if I did loose. On the other hand, if I did suck out the pot, then I would have a stack that would allow me to play fast and see more flops, which definately gives me an edge.

Nice post Kid. Interesting hand.

I would fold. No matter what he had, you knew you were behind. You had to catch to make a hand, he didn't. Not really a coin flip situation. Sometimes you gotta gamble to win these things though.

I think the caliber of my starting hand makes it easier to say fold. But if I were in the same spot, but with KQs and had picked up a flush draw it would virtually be the same call. I think more people would say call in that spot, but since my hand was 43 of clubs they say fold.

Good job on the read btw.

I would have folded because, to me, the bigger the difference in skill between me and a player, the more hands I want to play against them and the less likely I would play a coinflip against them.

Why risk a coinflip when you can take their chips later with higher % of winning anyway?

And playing a 3%Nuts hand like 43c to a raise that is about 5% of your stack is -EV (not to mention it was 10% of HIS stack). Because the only hands you could COMFORTABLY go All-in with are a straight, flush, and FH, and those only happen 3% of the time. So over the long term this call will cost you $$$.

WI seems to me to be what I would call a Maniac. They're really easy to play for me (just call when you have a hand). There's really no hurry to take their chips.

And how can a college student afford $50 SnGs? I'm a college student and all I can afford are Freerolls...

All I know is check-call is pretty bad and that he could have easily held AJ, KJ, QQ,

Bad Call regardless of your read.... End of Discussion

Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

Bad Call regardless of your read.... End of Discussion

No, I think it was a pretty good call, based on his correct read. I would still probably fold just cause it was so early in the tourney, but as he said, losing the hand wasn't going to cripple him. And, also as he said, it would be almost the same odds to call if he had KQs (or even AKs) and the flop was the same except with two to his suit, which I think most would agree isn't a bad call at all.

You made a fantastic read on the hand, you knew your opponent was stabbing at the pot; however, he was still ahead of you. Early in a tournament, you can wait for better opportunities to increase your lead.

You were still behind when you called his all-in. You hand 1 way to win, catching an out. Learning to fold borderline situations was the hardest thing I've done in poker, but in the long run it will increase your earnings.