Jyms said to experiment with smaller c-bets in 3 bet pots

Villain is 16/4/1.4

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP1 ($5)
MP2 ($10.65)
MP3 ($5.38)
Hero (CO) ($9.84)
Button ($6.45)
SB ($3.11)
BB ($2)
UTG ($2.94)
UTG+1 ($6.23)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K, A
1 fold, UTG+1 bets $0.15, MP1 calls $0.15, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.60, 4 folds, MP1 calls $0.45

Flop: ($1.42) 9, Q, 7 (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets $0.75, 1 fold

Total pot: $1.42 | Rake: $0.05


Like this?

pretty much.

Can you tell me why you like this, ragnar?

amidoingitrite
villain 3b me bvb three times already, and I was getting pretty sick of his shit

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($107.90)
Button ($113.15)
Hero (SB) ($119.05)
BB ($115.70)
UTG ($43.45)
MP ($38.50)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6, 5
4 folds, Hero bets $3, BB raises to $10, Hero raises to $22.50, BB calls $12.50

Flop: ($45) 10, 8, 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $14, 1 fold

Total pot: $45 | Rake: $2.25

I'd pick a better hand to counter, iopq. It really depends on how often he folds too but in most cases I'd go with Axo but that's ONLY if they know how to fold.

Originally Posted by iopq

amidoingitrite
villain 3b me bvb three times already, and I was getting pretty sick of his shit

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($107.90)
Button ($113.15)
Hero (SB) ($119.05)
BB ($115.70)
UTG ($43.45)
MP ($38.50)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6, 5
4 folds, Hero bets $3, BB raises to $10, Hero raises to $22.50, BB calls $12.50

Flop: ($45) 10, 8, 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $14, 1 fold

Total pot: $45 | Rake: $2.25

Originally Posted by kmind

I'd pick a better hand to counter, iopq. It really depends on how often he folds too but in most cases I'd go with Axo but that's ONLY if they know how to fold.

How often am I going to have Axo? He 3b me every time I raised from SB. A2o-ATo is 8.1% of all hands
Hands I am 4b for value:
QQ+,AK 2.6%
Hands I flat a 3b with:
JJ-99,AQs-AJs,KJs+,AQo-AJo,KQo 5.3%

so I am continuing with 16% of my range
he's risking $10 to win a total of $13.5
if I fold 74% of the time he makes IMMEDIATE profit
so if I raise 61% from the SB he makes immediate profit on his 3b
furthermore, since I'm flatting 1/3 of the time, he can sometimes win a pot post-flop, especially being in position

so I'm 4bing him really 10% so if he breaks even when I flat he only needs me to raise 40%

all of that adds up to
1. Stop raising so much from SB
2. Widen 4b range (incl. 4b for value range)

Originally Posted by kmind

Can you tell me why you like this, ragnar?

what?

ragnar - good
iopq - steal less from the sb

Usually the first time I 4-bet someone who 3-bets a lot, I want to do it with say the top 1/4 of his range, just because so many of them just won't give up. I'd rather test out his 3b/folding range when I stand a chance of having the best hand... and just generally I don't really mix in pure buffs like ever. Of course I'd rather call with KQ and raise 68s, but that's just because of how they play against a calling range, but I wouldn't even consider the Q2, 94 or 23...

Basically you're correct in saying you 'have' to 4-bet and otherwise you're giving them an edge, but if the guy is never ever folding to 4-bets, and you're oop, it can be much more profitable to just wait for a good hand, flop a pair and stack him when he reverse floats in a 4-bet pot and then bluff shovels the turn.

Originally Posted by Ragnar4

Originally Posted by kmind

Can you tell me why you like this, ragnar?

what?

I think his point there is that you need to know WHY you bet smaller in 3bet pots as you won't always want to do that. What factors in this hand led to the decision to put in a 1/2 pot c-bet?

Originally Posted by iopq

Originally Posted by kmind

I'd pick a better hand to counter, iopq. It really depends on how often he folds too but in most cases I'd go with Axo but that's ONLY if they know how to fold.

How often am I going to have Axo? He 3b me every time I raised from SB. A2o-ATo is 8.1% of all hands
Hands I am 4b for value:
QQ+,AK 2.6%
Hands I flat a 3b with:
JJ-99,AQs-AJs,KJs+,AQo-AJo,KQo 5.3%

so I am continuing with 16% of my range
he's risking $10 to win a total of $13.5
if I fold 74% of the time he makes IMMEDIATE profit
so if I raise 61% from the SB he makes immediate profit on his 3b
furthermore, since I'm flatting 1/3 of the time, he can sometimes win a pot post-flop, especially being in position

so I'm 4bing him really 10% so if he breaks even when I flat he only needs me to raise 40%

all of that adds up to
1. Stop raising so much from SB
2. Widen 4b range (incl. 4b for value range)

Good response. I never call 3bets OOP and I know many who do this as well so I just assumed you were the same. I'd also completely go with your "all of that adds up to" strategy as this is how I would counter. I'd just start raising less from the SB and make sure that my hands were for value.

Originally Posted by GatorJH

Originally Posted by Ragnar4

Originally Posted by kmind

Can you tell me why you like this, ragnar?

what?

I think his point there is that you need to know WHY you bet smaller in 3bet pots as you won't always want to do that. What factors in this hand led to the decision to put in a 1/2 pot c-bet?

Yes. I just don't understand what you are trying to say in your first post? Are you saying you c-bet 100% of the time in 3bet pots and it's always half pot? That'd be a nice little leak.

Originally Posted by oskar

Usually the first time I 4-bet someone who 3-bets a lot, I want to do it with say the top 1/4 of his range, just because so many of them just won't give up. I'd rather test out his 3b/folding range when I stand a chance of having the best hand... and just generally I don't really mix in pure buffs like ever. Of course I'd rather call with KQ and raise 68s, but that's just because of how they play against a calling range, but I wouldn't even consider the Q2, 94 or 23...

Basically you're correct in saying you 'have' to 4-bet and otherwise you're giving them an edge, but if the guy is never ever folding to 4-bets, and you're oop, it can be much more profitable to just wait for a good hand, flop a pair and stack him when he reverse floats in a 4-bet pot and then bluff shovels the turn.

I run into this problem a lot in my live limit games. A certain type of player has a one-dimensional strategy which involves pure aggression pre-flop in position, followed by more aggression on the flop. In other words, they will raise the pot if nobody else has done so, and they will raise the flop if someone puts a bet out and bet the flop if nobody does. Of course, it's impossible to know whether you are ahead, and it is also impossible to get rid of these guys until at least the turn, and by then you've put a lot of money into the pot when you may not have anything close to the best hand.

But I don't think the answer is to simply "wait", because sometimes you never get a really "great" hand that you can re-raise him with, and often you get into these awful situations where you have missed and you have to try and figure out whether he missed also. Rather, you have to live with high variance if you want to make the correct play on these guys.

And I have come to believe that the correct play, if nobody else is challenging them, is to wait until you have a hand with potential. It doesn't have to be a great hand, just a hand that might make a great hand after the flop. Ax and Kx work fine; so do suited connectors. Even Qx suited works, or JTo. Just something that can potentially make you top pair or a flush or a straight. Re-raise him, get to the flop, and then decide what to do when you've missed. I will sometimes re-raise and sometimes not. The point though is to not play one line, so that when you do hit your big hand, he won't necessarily know it and you can get him to spew chips into the pot until he realizes he is beat.

Note, though, this strategy only if nobody else is taking the lead at playing back at him. If someone else is in the pot, that person may very well have a good hand, and you need to go back to a tighter range for re-raising the loose aggressive player.

I don't really flat 3b OOP, but at a certain point you have to. You can't 4b EVERY time. Of course, when you call a 3b with AQ you have to always stack off when you hit. If someone is 3bing like 40% in bvb situations I would assume we should have a 4b for value range, a calling range of hands that are not strong enough to 4b for value and a 4b bluffing range.

the reason we can't completely cover our ass by 4bing is that he can 5b us back and we won't be happy about 4bing hands like AQ or AJ unless it's for value
against very aggressive 3bettors we have to sometimes call hands that are not good enough to be in our value range

Originally Posted by GatorJH

Originally Posted by Ragnar4

Originally Posted by kmind

Can you tell me why you like this, ragnar?

what?

I think his point there is that you need to know WHY you bet smaller in 3bet pots as you won't always want to do that. What factors in this hand led to the decision to put in a 1/2 pot c-bet?

1/2 pot is about the smallest bet I'm willing to make when bluffing. The reason is I don't want to be played back (Post Oak Bluff Super-System) at, and anything less would be something that may get re-shoved over. At 1/2 pot on a pretty dry board with a Q I could have hit makes him want to fold TT, JJ 99 and AK.

Against thinking player I may bet less (1/3rd pot?) in order to encourage my opponent to play back at me if I were to flop top 2 or a set or something. Also I would need to balance this with betting full pot sometimes when I catch a large hand too.

This thread made me do this. Maybe it was too small lol, I think I'm sticking to 2/3 pot.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($7.64)
UTG ($4.69)
UTG+1 ($13.29)
MP1 ($5.79)
MP2 ($9.80)
CO ($4.05)
Hero (Button) ($5)
SB ($10)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K, A
1 fold, UTG+1 bets $0.30, MP1 calls $0.30, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls $0.70, 1 fold

Flop: ($2.37) Q, 5, 3 (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $1, UTG+1 calls $1

Turn: ($4.37) 3 (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks

River: ($4.37) 10 (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks

Total pot: $4.37 | Rake: $0.20

I probably wouldnt base any decisions on a sample size of 1.

Originally Posted by Ragnar4

Originally Posted by GatorJH

Originally Posted by Ragnar4

Originally Posted by kmind

Can you tell me why you like this, ragnar?

what?

I think his point there is that you need to know WHY you bet smaller in 3bet pots as you won't always want to do that. What factors in this hand led to the decision to put in a 1/2 pot c-bet?

1/2 pot is about the smallest bet I'm willing to make when bluffing. The reason is I don't want to be played back (Post Oak Bluff Super-System) at, and anything less would be something that may get re-shoved over. At 1/2 pot on a pretty dry board with a Q I could have hit makes him want to fold TT, JJ 99 and AK.

Against thinking player I may bet less (1/3rd pot?) in order to encourage my opponent to play back at me if I were to flop top 2 or a set or something. Also I would need to balance this with betting full pot sometimes when I catch a large hand too.

OK, but what if you calculate that with the stack sizes as they are you can calculate that you only need to bet say 1/3 pot on the flop to shove turn. Why not bet 1/3 pot on the flop and shove turn? You can do this with both bluffs and for value.

Only OESD and flush draws get odds to outdraw you when you bet 1/3 and have very little left over in your stack

Wait, you want me to double barrel bluff for my stack in a 3-bet pot?

the reason you're betting 1/3 pot on flop is to allows yourself more maneuverability on turn/river, so shoving turns is counter-intuitive

I can't imagine double barrel bluffing in 3bet spots at these stakes with ~100bb stacks to ever work.

Originally Posted by kmind

I can't imagine double barrel bluffing in 3bet spots at these stakes with ~100bb stacks to ever work.

it doesn't really matter what stakes if you're getting players to float you with ridiculously weak hands then betting the turn should be +EV vacuumalizationallywise

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Originally Posted by kmind

I can't imagine double barrel bluffing in 3bet spots at these stakes with ~100bb stacks to ever work.

it doesn't really matter what stakes if you're getting players to float you with ridiculously weak hands then betting the turn should be +EV vacuumalizationallywise

So what ridiculously weak hands are in our opponents range after the 3-bet call in op hand? Especially when we realize that my 3-bet was supa-lite when compared to a 4%PFR

Originally Posted by Ragnar4

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Originally Posted by kmind

I can't imagine double barrel bluffing in 3bet spots at these stakes with ~100bb stacks to ever work.

it doesn't really matter what stakes if you're getting players to float you with ridiculously weak hands then betting the turn should be +EV vacuumalizationallywise

So what ridiculously weak hands are in our opponents range after the 3-bet call in op hand? Especially when we realize that my 3-bet was supa-lite when compared to a 4%PFR

people call 3b IP with all kinds of crap because they want to "outplay" you post-flop
like the example of a guy calling a 3b with T8s

Then we bet 1/3 pot on the flop and he thinks we're weak and floats us with a gutshot
then we shove turn and he's unhappy with his hand

Originally Posted by Ragnar4

So what ridiculously weak hands are in our opponents range after the 3-bet call in op hand? Especially when we realize that my 3-bet was supa-lite when compared to a 4%PFR

The guy in the hand I posted had jacks. Double barreling would have been good in that spot.

I was thinking about this earlier and I generally this it's bad advice if players don't understand how betting smaller on the flop should affect turn/river ranges and decisions. Most will just do it because "yay now I get to lose less when my AK whiffs" instead of "well since I've induced bluffs and a wider-continuing range I need to barrel or c/r the turn a larger % of the time than normal b/c it will result in a profitable outcome"

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

I was thinking about this earlier and I generally this it's bad advice if players don't understand how betting smaller on the flop should affect turn/river ranges and decisions. Most will just do it because "yay now I get to lose less when my AK whiffs" instead of "well since I've induced bluffs and a wider-continuing range I need to barrel or c/r the turn a larger % of the time than normal b/c it will result in a profitable outcome"

very well put. you're so eloquent when you're not coy with your advice lol