This just occured to me...

When you decide to play poker, you're trying to make money, right?

But then the choices some people make at (and away from) the table seem to imply the opposite.

Are you really trying to make money?

It's not my primary goal, no. I mean, it's too intrinsic to the game to separate the money from the winning from the satisfaction in any meaningful sense; but I don't play for income.

Originally Posted by biondino

It's not my primary goal, no. I mean, it's too intrinsic to the game to separate the money from the winning from the satisfaction in any meaningful sense; but I don't play for income.

Well I didn't really mean it as playing for actual money or income, but more in the sense that the premise for playing is to try to win, but some people don't try to win.

Playing chess or checkers or any board game lends a decent analogy here. Consider someone who wants to play and is a very serious competitor, but plays random moves without thinking or reason. The point of playing is to try to win, but they're not really trying to win.

I hope this makes sense; it's kind of hard to put into words.

Most people at the table are there to gamble, not to "make" money as you put it. Gambling is a vice, just like guns, sex, or weed. It is something people do to escape the droll of everyday life, and gambling, not making money, is what does it.

My initial thought was that you were implying they tried to make money at the table, but then wasted money away from the table.

It seems like you're actually using money as the metric but questioning how they use their time to reach their goal.

@Dean:
You're somewhat right that a lot of people are gambooling and that's why poker need to be legal so we make more money. However, at 100NL most people aren't there to gambol. Most think they're making money, or at least capable of making money.

People at the table do their best to "win", TV poker made sure of that - in order for ESPN to coin TV poker it was necessary to give it something synonymous with all sports - victory/championship/winning. Ever played a $50 donkament and thought that you'd cut your left arm off to get that load of players at a $50NL cashgame?

You can't tell your friends that you won a cashgame the other night.

I remember having some fish chase down a gutshot with obscene odds vs. my top set, and having hit it on the river and stacked me, he goes "yes!", I go "wtf i run so bad" and he goes "i always go for the win card".

Originally Posted by Swig/Dean

However, at 100NL most people aren't there to gambol. Most think they're making money, or at least capable of making money.

I'd say 95% of the fish population say they "made" X amount.

Originally Posted by Ash256

Originally Posted by Swig/Dean

However, at 100NL most people aren't there to gambol. Most think they're making money, or at least capable of making money.

I'd say 95% of the fish population say they "made" X amount.

Since I can't beat them I like to think they're at least competent

Anyone who plays poker is going to say they make money...it looks bad if you say you lose money...and nobody wants to be a loser. The main problem most people do is play outside their skill level and outside their bankroll.

Therefore, start of low and when you can constantly beat one level then move up...and only when you're rolled for the level should you move up. Therefore, if you focus on those two things you'll be a winning poker player. If you can't beat the level you're currently at then obviously you're not good enough and you have leaks in your game.

I agree that it's largely about gambling, but not just about the money. I think many of go after the feeling they get when they successfully push a better hand out of a pot w/ a "GREAT" bluff, and when it doesn't work, they "just got caught this time".

They go after ego plays to make themselves feel better since they don't care enough, or have the patience, to actually learn how to win regularly.

Jesus Christ nevermind you gambling fucking degenerates

Are you talking about people that play for the sake of playing? They don't do everything in their power to win. Like study? Or that they play ATC just because they are bored. Is this about work ethic, focus and reasoning for doing what we do?

It occured to me too how easy it is to win money at poker if

- You are a realist
- You can learn quickly
- You are not a degen (understand bankroll management)
- You can grind

If you have all these 3 things you should be able to make money at poker as long as making money is your primary goal.

eg.

I suck, have been playing for 1 week. I grind 2NL profitably.

As opposed to: I rule, one day I will win the WSOP Main Event, I am too good for bankroll management. I would win a ton but these suckers keep drawing out on me, calling all the time, how the f@#< am I going to get them off their hands? I think online poker is rigged but I'm def a winning player.

I think as long as you have the right mindset winning at poker is easy.

You listed 4 things.

Also I meet all 4 criteria but don't win money at poker, so I would disagree with the easy part.

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

Are you talking about people that play for the sake of playing? They don't do everything in their power to win. Like study? Or that they play ATC just because they are bored. Is this about work ethic, focus and reasoning for doing what we do?

Yeah sorta. Hell I dunno.

Originally Posted by badgers

It occured to me too how easy it is to win money at poker if

- You are a realist
- You can learn quickly
- You are not a degen (understand bankroll management)
- You can grind

If you have all these 3 things you should be able to make money at poker as long as making money is your primary goal.

eg.

I suck, have been playing for 1 week. I grind 2NL profitably.

As opposed to: I rule, one day I will win the WSOP Main Event, I am too good for bankroll management. I would win a ton but these suckers keep drawing out on me, calling all the time, how the f@#< am I going to get them off their hands? I think online poker is rigged but I'm def a winning player.

I think as long as you have the right mindset winning at poker is easy.

ding ding ding ding

Originally Posted by swiggidy

You listed 4 things.

I edited to add you can grind and didn't proof read. I guess being good at maths helps too so clearly I fail.

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Also I meet all 4 criteria but don't win money at poker, so I would disagree with the easy part.

Maybe you are being unrealisic with your self assessment? Not meant to sound condescending, you are better than me but I don't understand why you would not win long term if you meet those criteria. Of course it's not easy to keep the right mental approach, as it says on someones sig poker drives people "batshit".

1) I'm curious why you think I'm a better player then you.

2) I didn't say I shouldn't be a winning player. I just said it's not that easy.

Maybe you should add a fifth, # hands played > x, and pick a number.

Originally Posted by swiggidy

1) I'm curious why you think I'm a better player then you.

Well, I've only been playing for ~1 year and while I feel I have got to grips with some of the fundamentals of the game there's still so much to learn. I am inobservant and impatient. And you play omahahahaha which as far as I can see is impossible. It may be that we are of a similar standard but I don't know...

Originally Posted by swiggidy

2) I didn't say I shouldn't be a winning player. I just said it's not that easy.

I guess what I meant in my post is your approach to the game is more important than your skill level in determining whether you are a winning player... This may sound stupid, but it isn't - note that I didn't mention which level you play at...

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Maybe you should add a fifth, # hands played > x, and pick a number.

It wasn't meant as a complete list or anything like that... It was just something that I have been thinking about. By winning player I mean a player who consistantly enters the game with +EV.

well damn i for one see what you are saying spoon, nice post.

FWIW I wasn't trying to attack your ideas.

My #5 sucks anyways. TJs put in a lot of hands and struggled for a long time.

Originally Posted by badgers

By winning player I mean a player who consistently enters the game with +EV.

Interesting way to view it. I would then try and argue I'm a winning player, too bad my BR doesn't agree

There Is Only 1 Reason I Play Poker And 1 Reason Alone... That Is To Make As Much Money As Possible. I Get No Joy Or Sece Of Acomplishment In My 1 And 2 Cent Blind Games... The Only And I Do Mean ''ONLY'' Reason I Am There Is To Exploit The Hell Out Of People Callink My 3 Of A Kind With There Seven Duce... So Far, And Mainley Due To The Posts And People At FTR I Am Abil To Do This.. I Started Poker About A Month Ago With A $20 Dollar Bank Roll, Im Now Up To Just Under $100... Ok Its Small Potatoes I Know.. I Worked Out That I Earn About A Tenth Of What A Swet Shop Slaves Houyrly Rate It... But, I Do It In My Spare Time And Im Still Just Learning... I Dont Gamble... Ill Only Go To The Showdown If Im 110% Sure I Am Going To Win... This Means For Me To Have A Minimum ''MINIMUM'' Of 3 Of A Kind... Idealy More .. And No I Dont Mean 3 Duces... Jacks Minimum, With No Possibility Of 3Q, 3K Or Three Aces. Yep I Do Get It Wrong... And Whare I Used To Call Some Hands A Gamble, I Now Try To Think Of It As Calculated Risk... And I Think Hard How Going All In On A Particular Game Will Make My Bank Roll Look Like If Im Wrong

Originally Posted by EvIlK3Rn3L

There Is Only 1 Reason I Play Poker And 1 Reason Alone... That Is To Make As Much Money As Possible. I Get No Joy Or Sece Of Acomplishment In My 1 And 2 Cent Blind Games... The Only And I Do Mean ''ONLY'' Reason I Am There Is To Exploit The Hell Out Of People Callink My 3 Of A Kind With There Seven Duce... So Far, And Mainley Due To The Posts And People At FTR I Am Abil To Do This.. I Started Poker About A Month Ago With A $20 Dollar Bank Roll, Im Now Up To Just Under $100... Ok Its Small Potatoes I Know.. I Worked Out That I Earn About A Tenth Of What A Swet Shop Slaves Houyrly Rate It... But, I Do It In My Spare Time And Im Still Just Learning... I Dont Gamble... Ill Only Go To The Showdown If Im 110% Sure I Am Going To Win... This Means For Me To Have A Minimum ''MINIMUM'' Of 3 Of A Kind... Idealy More .. And No I Dont Mean 3 Duces... Jacks Minimum, With No Possibility Of 3Q, 3K Or Three Aces. Yep I Do Get It Wrong... And Whare I Used To Call Some Hands A Gamble, I Now Try To Think Of It As Calculated Risk... And I Think Hard How Going All In On A Particular Game Will Make My Bank Roll Look Like If Im Wrong

I can't even read this.

I fit the "moderately reformed" gambling degen category, spoon. Gambling is my one vice. (WTF? sex is a vice, glow? ok, maybe two vices.) That's my nature. When I control it, I win $$. When it controls me...

Originally Posted by Robb

Originally Posted by EvIlK3Rn3L

There Is Only 1 Reason I Play Poker And 1 Reason Alone... That Is To Make As Much Money As Possible. I Get No Joy Or Sece Of Acomplishment In My 1 And 2 Cent Blind Games... The Only And I Do Mean ''ONLY'' Reason I Am There Is To Exploit The Hell Out Of People Callink My 3 Of A Kind With There Seven Duce... So Far, And Mainley Due To The Posts And People At FTR I Am Abil To Do This.. I Started Poker About A Month Ago With A $20 Dollar Bank Roll, Im Now Up To Just Under $100... Ok Its Small Potatoes I Know.. I Worked Out That I Earn About A Tenth Of What A Swet Shop Slaves Houyrly Rate It... But, I Do It In My Spare Time And Im Still Just Learning... I Dont Gamble... Ill Only Go To The Showdown If Im 110% Sure I Am Going To Win... This Means For Me To Have A Minimum ''MINIMUM'' Of 3 Of A Kind... Idealy More .. And No I Dont Mean 3 Duces... Jacks Minimum, With No Possibility Of 3Q, 3K Or Three Aces. Yep I Do Get It Wrong... And Whare I Used To Call Some Hands A Gamble, I Now Try To Think Of It As Calculated Risk... And I Think Hard How Going All In On A Particular Game Will Make My Bank Roll Look Like If Im Wrong

I can't even read this.

I'll summarize what he said.
He's new to poker. He plays to make money. He makes only about 1/10 of what a sweat shop worker makes. He does not gamble. He will not play if he does not have a set or better , and not just a set of 2's (i think he means he will muck a set of 2's to agression). He needs a set of jacks or higher , and no possibility of a set of Aces , Queens or Kings out there (so more or less top set , and it has to be jacks+).
If you see him on the tables , bluff the hell out of him!

No seriously you sound like your playing supppeerrr weak tight , if I'm understanding your post correctly.

Originally Posted by DetroitHusling101

I'll summarize what he said.

Thanks

Originally Posted by EvIlK3Rn3L

There Is Only 1 Reason I Play Poker And 1 Reason Alone... That Is To Make As Much Money As Possible. I Get No Joy Or Sece Of Acomplishment In My 1 And 2 Cent Blind Games... The Only And I Do Mean ''ONLY'' Reason I Am There Is To Exploit The Hell Out Of People Callink My 3 Of A Kind With There Seven Duce... So Far, And Mainley Due To The Posts And People At FTR I Am Abil To Do This.. I Started Poker About A Month Ago With A $20 Dollar Bank Roll, Im Now Up To Just Under $100... Ok Its Small Potatoes I Know.. I Worked Out That I Earn About A Tenth Of What A Swet Shop Slaves Houyrly Rate It... But, I Do It In My Spare Time And Im Still Just Learning... I Dont Gamble... Ill Only Go To The Showdown If Im 110% Sure I Am Going To Win... This Means For Me To Have A Minimum ''MINIMUM'' Of 3 Of A Kind... Idealy More .. And No I Dont Mean 3 Duces... Jacks Minimum, With No Possibility Of 3Q, 3K Or Three Aces. Yep I Do Get It Wrong... And Whare I Used To Call Some Hands A Gamble, I Now Try To Think Of It As Calculated Risk... And I Think Hard How Going All In On A Particular Game Will Make My Bank Roll Look Like If Im Wrong

You play too weak-tight if you really do play according to what you just said here. Also, you're playing too high if you consider how going all-in on a single hand will affect your bankroll.