just how far do you continue?

Question on continuation bets with AK AQ..

How often would you make another bet on the turn? or would you let it go if they call on the flop?

Obviously it depends on players.. so say you have no reads and limited knowledge of the player.

im aggressive as hell even if i miss. ill put weak players to a decision for all their chips on the river if i feel their holdings are weak. bet someones exact stack, most of the time theyll stop thinking youre bluffing .


i think one of the biggest mistakes on this forum is check/folding after someone calls your flop continuation bet. ill keep going until i have a clear indication that i cant win (calling station) or that somebody has a hand i cant push off (slowplayer). apart from that im continuing with a much larger turn bet.


just me though.



edit: forgot to add...never EVER try this crap against a short stack though. thats asking for a disaster.

Originally Posted by journey075

i think one of the biggest mistakes on this forum is check/folding after someone calls your flop continuation bet.

Depends on the stakes and the players involved. I don't like to get too tangled up with unimproved overcards because at my current level, a lot of people check/call the flop with a made hand like a set, and you're asking for trouble by continuing to bet into them. Even more players like to call down with pocket pairs or any piece of the board if they even remotely suspect you're drawing with overcards. I feel like it's possible to win a few more pots by aggressively betting down, but then again when you get called down you'll lose a ton of money (vs. a single continuation bet on the flop, which is comparatively nothing). So I believe there is maybe a larger potential for profit here, but also a potential for big swings and some really stupid-looking bustouts. It's more a question of personal style than anything if you can handle playing that way. Of course, if you're really good at sniffing out weakness and differentiating true weakness from a slowplay, this style can work well. I don't trust myself quite that far, so I prefer not to get that involved with AK.

Originally Posted by dalecooper

I don't like to get too tangled up with unimproved overcards.

This evening i got rather tangled up with a guy who i thought would fold but turned out to be a calling station. He'd called my preflop raise with 4J and stayed in on the 489 board, turn was a Q and I pushed(mistake) he called and won with 4s..

That's exactly the sort of problem you want to avoid. Sometimes you read a player as weak but he's actually a calling station (a very different kind of weakness), or worse, a tricky SOB who thinks he has your number - and is apparently correct.

This is a hand I posted in Tales of Poker recently, which applies here. This is one reason that continuing to assert yourself against apparent weakness can be a really bad idea. (Annep was hyper-aggressive both pre- and post-flop, and I basically decided the next time I got top pair or better, I was just going to call her down and let her hang herself.)

***** Hand History for Game 2255531643 *****
$100 NL Hold'em - Friday, June 24, 10:30:02 EDT 2005
Table Table 36825 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 5: pabboy1 ( $46.85 )
Seat 6: annep_08 ( $83.67 )
Seat 3: stressball10 ( $194.15 )
Seat 1: Garganasaur ( $174.3 )
Seat 4: idomif ( $61.3 )
Seat 2: ange26 ( $25 )
idomif posts small blind [$0.5].
pabboy1 posts big blind [$1].
ange26 posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to stressball10 [ Th Qh ]
annep_08 raises [$4].
Garganasaur folds.
ange26 folds.
stressball10 calls [$4].
idomif folds.
pabboy1 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3c, 9h, Ts ]
annep_08 checks.
stressball10 bets [$6].
annep_08 raises [$15].
stressball10 calls [$9].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 4c ]
annep_08 checks.
stressball10 bets [$8].
annep_08 raises [$25].
stressball10 calls [$17].
** Dealing River ** [ 8h ]
annep_08 is all-In [$39.67]
stressball10 calls [$39.67].
annep_08 shows [ 2s, As ] high card ace.
stressball10 shows [ Th, Qh ] a pair of tens.
stressball10 wins $167.84 from the main pot with a pair of tens.
annep_08 has left the table.

Of course you know the answer changes based on the board, the player, stack sizes, and position...

I assume your'e talking about the situation when you're out of position, having to act first after the flop. (When you're in position it's so much easier, if they check to you, then I make another bet on the turn, if they call that one, I slow down on the river. Unimproved overs just aren't worth it.)

When I'm out of position, I've been varying what I do lately when it comes to continuation bets. If you're playing shorthanded, or with decent players (that may attempt to get reads on you) I don't even make a continuation bet sometimes, and fold to the slightest bet from any opponent. This gives them the impression that you don't get tied to a pot and you fold if you don't have anything. This can set you up for more successful continuation betting on later hands. Here are just some general rules that I follow when it comes to continuation bets, assuming your in EP (also assuming your overcards missed)...

-Randomly vary the size of your continuation bets
-A check-behind is almost always a sign of weakness, it may be safe to fire on the next street.
-If any paint comes down, bet into 2 or less opponents, check/fold to 3 or more opponents
-If you hit a draw with 8 or more outs, always bet
-On a board of all rags, uncoordinated, bet into rocks, check to Laggs/calling stations
-If you see players regularly calling continuation bets, then don't make them every time (mix it up)
-Try to determine if a player is on a draw (tough to do out of position, but the board will help) You may be able to continuation bet until the river (some people are just stubborn...)
-If they called the flop bet and there is no apparent draw, either check the unimproved turn or make a smaller bet.

Good analysis Storm. I employ a lot of those tactics myself. You have to mix it up - constant, straight-forward aggression is going to fail you against certain players and tables.

Originally Posted by dalecooper

Good analysis Storm. I employ a lot of those tactics myself. You have to mix it up - constant, straight-forward aggression is going to fail you against certain players and tables.

Thx... Yep, of course we learn the hard way...

And a little something else about aggression, (I used to think this way as well) a lot of the time when making continuation bets until the river, people do it because they don't want to give up control of the hand and appear weak. They feel that since they showed strenght in the beginning of the hand, that they must continue to feel strong and bet/raise, if they check/fold then they will be run over later. It seems like a macho/ego thing really, which there is no room for in poker. If you really think about it, is appearing weak such a bad thing? Isn't this a game of misconception, deception, and partial information? Don't you want someone to feel like they can run over you later, when you're actually holding the nuts? I have no problem looking like a pussy for five straight hands, if that sixth hand will double me up.

EXACTLY. Frankly, I *love* appearing weak if I'm acting after a really aggressive player who is constantly raising and betting with nothing. Those players are guaranteed to pass me a lot of chips in a very short amount of time, if I'm getting decent cards at all. I sat at a table with a guy yesterday who was running over everyone & had $150 (1.5 buyins) when I sat down. Within half an hour of betting into me and trying to run over me like everyone else, he had donated me all but $40 - and mostly on hands where I only had a pair. After the last hand where I patiently called his first few bets and he had to fold some questionable cards again, he left the table in what looked like a major snit. (At which point I immediately took over as the table bully.)

unimproved overcards? psh you give me too much credit. try doing it with T8o on an AKxxx board -- and getting a fold. its all about playing the opponent. i dont bet for the sake of it, i bet into weakness (until im convinced that he isnt folding due to him being retarded or having a monster).

Originally Posted by journey075

unimproved overcards? psh you give me too much credit. try doing it with T8o on an AKxxx board -- and getting a fold. its all about playing the opponent. i dont bet for the sake of it, i bet into weakness (until im convinced that he isnt folding due to him being retarded or having a monster).

Hey if that works for you, more power to you, you're balls are probably hairier than mine. You're right, it all depends on your opponents and your reads. I just can't bring myself to play like that very often at my stakes, I'll get called down by some idiot with second pair, or with my luck, someone actually has the fcking hand i'm trying to rep.

Dale, beautiful session, gotta love it when you got a big stacked maniac to your right and you're catching cards... *wipes drool from chin*

haha, i tend to make more moves like this since ive dramatically increased my bb/100 with lagg play. i tend to make wayyy more money without a hand than anything else.

but what do i know.

Originally Posted by journey075

haha, i tend to make more moves like this since ive dramatically increased my bb/100 with lagg play. i tend to make wayyy more money without a hand than anything else.

but what do i know.

You know how to get busted if you sit with me. But I'm sure that's successful against a wide variety of weak/tights.