JJ preflop

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

Hero (BB) ($14.87)
UTG ($10)
UTG+1 ($4.25)
MP1 ($13.81)
MP2 ($19.14)
CO ($17.10)
Button ($10)
SB ($31.53)

Preflop: Hero is BB with ,
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.10, MP2 bets $0.50, CO raises to $1.20, 2 folds, Hero calls $1.10, 1 fold, MP2 raises to $19.14 (All-In), CO calls $15.90 (All-In),

hero?

MP2 is 15/12 AFq 43 over 242 hands

CO is 13/8 AFq 42 over 101 hands


my range for them is QQ+ and nothing less... they dont even 3bet AKs preflop from i have seen in they play. So my JJ is a big underdog to any of their hands so i say its a fold, but could all the money that are in to be a reason to call?

http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ll-173396.html

Why don't you actually try to do it for once? Go! We'll help you work out the math if you need. You have to put some effort into it and not always expect cooked answers. Cooked answers will not help you develop a feel for it. Actually calculating this yourself will.

edit: congratulations for tearing through 5NL and moving up to 10NL...

You have a range for both of them. Now plug their ranges into Pokerstove, calculate your equity, and see if you have the right odds to call.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ll-173396.html

edit: daviddem beat me to it!

pokerstove gives me 15%, the other 2 both QQ+ 42%.... so 15% to beat but i have to pay 30% of the pot.... aint working so fold is good here.

i knew that about stove, i was making sure that it really is a fold


PS: ty david, hope to get to 25nl in 1-2 months

Please show the details of how you calculate your exact pot odds. There are a few pitfalls to avoid when you do that.

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 42.066% 39.04% 03.02% 751385988 58182828.00 { QQ+ }
Hand 1: 42.066% 39.04% 03.02% 751385988 58182828.00 { QQ+ }
Hand 2: 15.869% 15.73% 00.14% 302752080 2648904.00 { JJ }


---

OK that's your equity, now show how you calculate your pots odds (with details of the calculations)

pot: 0,15 (blinds) +0,50 (MP open)+ 1,20 (CO raise) + 1,20 (hero call) +18,64(MP all in) +15,9 (CO call)=37.59$ pot

i have left 13,67,this what i have to call i call that for a pot of 37.59- (18.64-13.67)-(15.9-13.67)=30.39

in 100 hands i win : 15*30.39=455.85
i lose: 85*13.67=1161.95

its -EV

Very good (just a little mistake is that "Hero call" is 1.10, not 1.20) so the pot is $37.49

imo it is easier to calculate pot odds as a % because then you can compare them directly with your equity and find out if the call is +EV without having to actually calculate the EV. To do that just take the $30.29 pot that you could win and add your call to it. Then divide your call by the result:

total pot after your call: 30.29 + 13.67 = 43.96
pot odds = 13.67 / 43.96 = 31.1%, which is much more than the 15.8% equity you have, so the call is -EV (no need to calculate the exact EV to know that it is -EV).

When you become used to know roughly how much your equity is in classic situations, you can roughly approximate your pot odds in this manner at the table to figure whether a call is +EV.

Good job doing the calcs anyway.

ty... i am trying ... learning never over

Originally Posted by Razvan729

learning never over

Well you got that right. Now think of the learning curve at NL10k. Figuring equity would be like blinking.

Originally Posted by StarGrinder

Well you got that right. Now think of the learning curve at NL10k. Figuring equity would be like blinking.

hope that... cause otherwise i will drop fast and hard i guess.... have just 5k hands here at 10nl, but seems diff then 2 and 5, first its the money, second i see more floats and cbet flop calling and a lot more idiots hope to manage myself. my goal is to get to 25nl in 2 moths . i need to get to 750 BR i guess...

grunch
the chance to triple up is attractive but being 3-way also cuts your chances of winning quite a bit. in general, calling all-in with Ak or JJ is not gonna be good. when two people get ai in front of you, especially deep!, JJ should be an easy dump

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 25.533% 24.93% 00.61% 1631773788 39811112.00 { JJ }
Hand 1: 38.566% 34.75% 03.82% 2274772860 250061516.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 2: 35.900% 31.61% 04.29% 2069164032 281137796.00 { JJ+, AKs, AKo }
probably their ranges are tighter anyway cuz they're deep

Why are you playing $10nl when you don't know what to do with JJ when it meets this kind of pf aggression from two solid players? This is such an easy fold. This hand should be forgotten about around half a nanosecond after your brain registers what your next hand is. Folding jacks pre flop is not sick, it's not hard, it's standard to this kind of action.

And what happened to Razvan729 on pokerstars? He stopped playing 30th Novemeber, I must admit I'm curious. Probably shouldn't be nosy, should I?

It's a fold but the more important question should be about your previous play IMO (the 3bet call). I do agree it's ok because of deepish stacks and probably really tight ranges.

Next time post stats/reads for their 3bets please.

Also, don't multiaccount if you do and if that's what OngBonga is implying.

I don't mind the cold call pre flop, we're oop 3-way with a meh pair on half the flops we'll see. We can assess the action on raggy flops to determine if we're good, get away quickly and cheaply from Q+ flops, and jizz over J flops. But fold to the pf shove because the only way we're in good shape is if both of these guys have AK, which is very unlikely. There's at least one bigger pair here, often two. I wouldn't be surprised at all if this is KK vs AA, with the shove coming from KK. And a jack came on the flop, hero weeps. Epic soulread.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

Why are you playing $10nl when you don't know what to do with JJ when it meets this kind of pf aggression from two solid players? This is such an easy fold. This hand should be forgotten about around half a nanosecond after your brain registers what your next hand is. Folding jacks pre flop is not sick, it's not hard, it's standard to this kind of action.

And what happened to Razvan729 on pokerstars? He stopped playing 30th Novemeber, I must admit I'm curious. Probably shouldn't be nosy, should I?

very right... i had a 7k hand run at 10nl and i dropped 9BI, i saw that even i have a BR for it, i am not ready, this i why i stepped back to 2nl (still have a BR for 10nl tough) to train my brain and mind in calculating all sort off odds and equity pre/post flop. it costs me less to train here if i make mistakes in analyzing the hand. until now i made my way up just on made hands and rarely doing this, then 10nl made me see that at bigger stakes, all math should be as quick and normal as walking. this is why i decided to get back on training grounds.

i locked that account,Razvan729 , was too mad one day when i seen my stats on it and just locked it. its not multi account.

stop cold-calling 3bets oop

Originally Posted by Razvan729

i locked that account,Razvan729 , was too mad one day when i seen my stats on it and just locked it. its not multi account.

um, if you lock one account and then open another isn't there a problem vs the t&cs at stars? i'd e-mail their support, explain your error, and request your first account be reopened. Stars do read poker forums, be very careful.

hmmm... i never played on that account since then, except once that i entered by mistake on that play name... i will email so that it wount be a problem... ty daven.

Should hero just fold to the 3bet?
If the 3bet flat with JJ is good in this spot,can someone explain me why?

Sorry about bringing up the old account, I was just being nosy. You should be careful though because if stars were to find out, they could seize your bankroll. And if I can find out using google, then it stands to reason that it's not difficult to catch people.

As for stepping up to $10nl, I did it too, I abandoned $5nl after $8.5k hands and an overall loss of 1 BI. I didn't really know why I wasn't making money at $5nl, I think I was just running bad. I'm making money at $10nl so I have no reason to step back down, but even though I'm rolled for $25nl if I wanted, there's no way I'm touching that until I've beaten $10nl, it's just too much of a step up.

$10nl is a different game to $5nl and $2nl, there's a lot more floating cbets, 3bet bluffs etc. More people are playing good poker. Having said that, there are also plenty of fish about, ones willing to stack off 250bb deep with overpairs, so there's plenty of money to be made, if we can avoid getting exploited by the good regs. But I wasn't just being mean, if you really consider this JJ spot to be a difficult spot, then you're not ready for $10nl. It really is that easy a fold. Man I'd lay down QQ to this action. You got your HUD running, you can see they're not idiots, use the information you have. Your initial ranges of QQ+ seem right, so I'm not sure why you need to ask what to do with JJ in such a spot.

Originally Posted by zW00pa1

Should hero just fold to the 3bet?
If the 3bet flat with JJ is good in this spot,can someone explain me why?

I don't think hero should fold to 3bet pre, when he makes the call villains have wide enough range to see a flop I think, plus stacks are easily deep enough to set mine if we think we're dominated. Even if we think the 3bet is QQ+, MP still has well enough hands in his range that he's flatting or folding, so we usually see a flop here imo.

w/o brag, i crush 2nl and i managed a 3.8BB/100 30k hands at 5nl. but at 10nl i seen that i dont know really well when to float, when to shove, when to call all ins,i cant figure that well ranges ,when firing 2nd barrel on air, i dont calculate equity as fast as i should, when to reraise and just call pre/post flop, i mean i seen that my poker isnt bad, but it aint that god also. my BR is 260$ so i have for 5nl, 10nl, but i wanna experiment all these above in 2nl and after session review hands with pokerstove and see where i made mistakes, at 2nl is cheap to be wrong with my BR so learning for me and making right all my leeks is better chause is cheap. i won so far but just because i was holding hands and because opp shoved/ called AI with little equity.... at 10nl they are not so stupid anymore so i have to do some more learning and getting experience... i really want to be a poker player, not just a nit that drops all excepts nuts and doesnt know what to do with the rest.

For what it's worth, $260 is not a sufficient bankroll to take on $10nl. You should step up when you reach $400. Your roll is perfect for $5nl, if you can beat that then I suggest you build your roll at $5nl and then step up, making sure you step back down if you crash down to $300.

@Razvan- Are you talking 3.8 big bets or big blinds? If you're not beating 5nl for at least 5 big blinds/100 then you should stay there until you are.

@Oingo Boingo- nit.

PT3says 3.8 BB/100 hands so its bigbets.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

For what it's worth, $260 is not a sufficient bankroll to take on $10nl. You should step up when you reach $400. Your roll is perfect for $5nl, if you can beat that then I suggest you build your roll at $5nl and then step up, making sure you step back down if you crash down to $300.

wrong

260$ i have 26BI for 10nl, i can safely play it until i get to 150$ and then drop down to 5nl if i am bad playing or have a bad run. i think you are way to nitty with your BR OngBonga

Originally Posted by OngBonga

For what it's worth, $260 is not a sufficient bankroll to take on $10nl. You should step up when you reach $400. Your roll is perfect for $5nl, if you can beat that then I suggest you build your roll at $5nl and then step up, making sure you step back down if you crash down to $300.

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Nothing wrong with taking 5 buyin shot, maybe even 8 BI shot with BR of 260.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

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WTF

So 40x buy in rule is bollocks then?

Originally Posted by zW00pa1

Should hero just fold to the 3bet?
If the 3bet flat with JJ is good in this spot,can someone explain me why?

No, because flatting 3-bets OOP against ranges that are ahead of you is craptastic.

15/12 is getting 3-bet by a 13/8 - would like to see the 3-bet% but if its smallish say under 5% its an insta-fold against 1 player, against 2 its even worse. You would have to have a good read on a light 3-bettor to make this a profitable call OOP.

You could make a case for flatting in position but thats not this hand.

Originally Posted by Razvan729

i think you are way to nitty with your BR OngBonga

Seems so. Looks like it's fine to have a crack with your BR. Good luck in that case.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

So 40x buy in rule is bollocks then?

depends on situation. Like, it's not bollocks if you're a 200nl pro thinking of moving to 400nl, it's absolute bollocks when debating the move from 5nl to 10nl once you've won a bunch at 5nl.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

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lmao <3

Originally Posted by OngBonga

For what it's worth, $260 is not a sufficient bankroll to take on $10nl. You should step up when you reach $400. Your roll is perfect for $5nl, if you can beat that then I suggest you build your roll at $5nl and then step up, making sure you step back down if you crash down to $300.

Nit.