JJ on 9high board against 2 Raises

[inV1NCEble]

I was going throught some older handhistories and I found this one:

(I only know that Button is a spewy donk)

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.04 BB (6 handed) - Party-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($0.98)
MP ($5.27)
Hero (CO) ($5)
BB ($4.01)
UTG ($7.88)
Button ($1.25)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J, J
1 fold, MP bets $0.16, Hero raises $0.32, Button calls $0.32, 2 folds, MP calls $0.16

Flop: ($1.02) 7, 9, 3 (3 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $0.65, Button raises to $0.93 (All-In), MP raises $1.58, Hero?


I'm having problems putting them on a range. They so often show up with junk like 43o, but when I call and get stacked by a 2p hand I feel like a total idiot.
I would certainly stack the button, but idk about the range of the MP..
Not being able to form simple ranges like this is the reason I still suck at poker and something I'm really trying to work on.
So I would like to know what ranges you guys would give them here and why

[spoonitnow]

Whip out PokerStove and figure out how tight they have to be here before you can't just get it in and be +EV. That will help you start to get a feel for things and give you a frame of reference.

[kdawgy80]

Let's see. I'll take a shot at this.

AA-QQ are pretty much out of their range since your raise should have induced a 3bet if they had those.

The one with the stronger range is going to be the button since he still saw a raise and reraise in front of him and still called. The mp wasn't inclined to 3bet you so his range is lower. I can't really put them on anything too exact without any reads or hud stats but hopefully this helps.

And this is 4nl after all so sometimes anything goes but middle pps do fit in their range, more so for mp. Button probably more like AK/TT.

[inV1NCEble]

Since I'm pretty sure we have the button beat and he's a shorty, I'm concentrating on the MP. If he only has TT-99,77,33,AhKh-Jh he has 58% equity.That's kinda where I'm stuck: if we throw in something like A9 it +EV, but I don't think he would b/c pf with that or c/r the flop. The same for hands like 88, why would he c/r with those here? Or am I forgetting other obvious hands?

[eragotte]

if he knows button is a donk why cant he have like 88 66 AhTh, also I could see him playing A9s like this since your 3bet is small... its a pretty weird raise by him, id find it pretty dam hard to find a fold here, id more likely raise to like 3$ or shove lol

[eragotte]

^ this said, i have trouble with these spots as well so def take my answer with a grain of salt, Im interested to see what others say

[kmind]

What's going on preflop? Just flat (usually) or 3bet. Don't even pretend that's a 3bet, don't know what to call that.

Here's where I quote spoon. Let's see the math.

[inV1NCEble]

to eragotte: like I said that isn't the range of the button, its the range of the MP. I also find his raise strange if he has anything else but a very obvious set, that's why I have such a hard time forming a range.

to kmind: It's an older hh, I should've definitely 3bet bigger (this size is pretty gay), I wouldn't flat however. Why would you do that? I think I'm getting called by far worse

thx for your input

[eragotte]

to eragotte: like I said that isn't the range of the button, its the range of the MP. I also find his raise strange if he has anything else but a very obvious set, that's why I have such a hard time forming a range.

my point is that if MP also knows button is a donk he can be isolating button with worse hands hoping you will fold and button has something stupid. therefore to me his range is weaker

[kmind]

to kmind: It's an older hh, I should've definitely 3bet bigger (this size is pretty gay), I wouldn't flat however. Why would you do that? I think I'm getting called by far worse

Didn't know how your games play but yeah that's fine then which is why I said "usually" in my post. At 25NL+ and probably 10NL a lot JJ is better a call than a 3et so just make sure you have good enough reads to 3bet JJ.

[inV1NCEble]

Any thoughts on postflop range kmind?

[JKDS]

Well, i think you're idea to post hands to work on ranges is a good place to start...however choosing this particular hand to start is the equivalent of choosing everclear for your first alcoholic beverage. This hand is a difficult spot mainly because we have no information on MP or Button (spewy doesnt say how he gives money away), and we've '3bet' so we're now playing a big pot against 2 'unknowns' with no idea of how an unknown might play and hence we get a pretty shitty spot.

The way you'd go about this type of scenario, is form a kind of general range for a 4nl player and use that as a very loose and general guide for how this guy might be playing and then react accordingly. Thats not really as easy as it sounds, and i find that the best way to avoid just giving money away is to make the smallest mistakes possible...where small just means low cost. IE, id give a check/raise from a MP opener a bunch of credit and acknowledge that while i might have the best hand, i dont want to be needlessly giving away my stack to a nit.

Now to get a better feel for ranges, find the simplest hand in your database. Maybe an AA or KK one where we get a dry flop and get 3 streets of value from villain or something similar where the opponents are also well known to you. This way we can start forming ranges for them (which should be much much easier). Then we can find a harder hand where opponents dont have a so narrowly defined range, but we still know who they are. Then find an even harder one where their range is even tougher and then go to someone whos completely unknown.

[JKDS]

On another note, you should be paying a bit more attention to be quite honest. I acknowledge that this is an older hand history, but we should have, at the very least, 3 hands on MP to go off of or knowledge that hes a poster. This kind of information isnt exactly perfect now, but its still information that is usable to get an idea of how they play.

For instance, If he's raised 3 hands in a row, we can go along thinking hes raising a little wide. While its certainly possible hes got QQ, AK, AQ or some other combination of premiums 3 hands in a row, its fairly unlikely (how often does someone raise 3 hands in a row who isnt a maniac?). Its not a fact that he'll be a maniac, but hes probably on the looser side.

On the other hand, someone that folded 3 times in a row probably isnt a maniac and leans towards the tighter side. We dont know for sure, but its something we can say. Its a little more difficult when we get him raising one hand, and folding the rest, but its still information that could be used to help form a range.

Additionally, it seems we know the button since we've confidently classified him as 'spewy'; however that name doesnt really define him. How does he spew? Is he raising lots of hands pre and getting it in every time? Is he limping a bunch and then attempting to pull off a 3 street bluff most of the time? How is he spewy?

The above is all useful when forming ranges on every street so i hope you see how important even the little things can be.

[inV1NCEble]

Thx for your tips JKDS. I wil go over some simpler hands,form ranges and pokerstove them to get a better feeling of ranges. Normally I do take alot of notes on the playingstyle of the opponents, but I save them on partypoker so without stats and since it's an older hand I can't really give any other information. (On second thought I'd better looked at previous hands I played with them before I posted.)

With the spewiness of the button I meant starting shortstacked and shoving over anything with stuff like bottompair.