Improving at 10nl or 25nl?

Allthough I'm following this forum for about half a year right now, this is my first actual post. Because I 'know' alot allready of/from all the regular posters on this forum and because it might stimulate you to give some feedback, it seems fair to give you an idea of who I am and what my pokerplaying looks like.

I started playing 'play-money-games' in april 2006 and discovered freeroll tournaments as a way of winning real money. After some hick-ups of winning some and losing it all again in ring-games I started to apply a proper bankroll management strategy in august/september and have now worked my way up from several bucks to alot more (hey, it's my first post, so let me get comfortable giving 'confidential' information and maybe I'll let you know how big my bankroll is exactly...lol). I did this by playing mainly 10 nl, first at Purple Lounge (prima) and now at pokerstars. An occasional MTT-win also boosted my bankroll a bit. I feel really comfortable playing 10 nl now.

Recently I started playing 25 nl, and feel really good when winning (it goes alot faster) but when losing 4 buy-inns it really hurts. And (for now ) here is what I need some advice about. Should I just swich completely to 25 nl and improve from there getting comfortable with the bigger pots, or should I first get the max. out of it (stats wise) at the level I feel really comfortable right now?

The way I play at 10 nl is multi-tabling up to 7 or 8 tables. I don't know how I could call my playing style, but basically what I do is playing all pp's mainly for sets (as mentioned in a recent post) betting the crap out off AA and KK pre-flop. Further I play strong aces ( AK/AQ, AJ mainly from LP) and limp sometimes with stuff like KJ suited, suited connectors etc when the odds are favourable (BTW, what exactly are favourable odds to limp with, say, 78s. What odds are you looking for to complete the SB with 89o? Maybe another topic...). I think, from what I've read here, that I might be, you know, ... a nit. My VPIP is about 14, my PFR 4-5 and W$ASD about 58% (last 50.000 hands). And allthough it works out fine (8-10 BB/100 over the last 50.000 hands) at these stakes, maybe I should get more experienced playing less strong holdings before I move up to be able to play through all the bluffing and goofballing at 25 nl with less than the nuts. At 10 nl the betting seems fairly straight/weakish and I can put opponents on a range of hands, whereas at 25 nl everyone seems to hit a bigger monster than mine or really needed the scarecard on the turn to complete some sort of draw, while in fact they might be bluffing a bit more and my play might be just to weak.

And yes, that 4 buy-inn drop happened last week, when I decided people were bluffing and my AA or KK would be good while they actually were serious about it, lol. Won most of it back at 10 nl though and my bankroll can take it. Maybe I shouldn't worry about stats and playing style and just play. But I feel if I play the same at 25 nl as at 10 nl, I'm not really comfortable making the occasional bluff, or calling down with an overpair if I think I might be beat but opponent could be goofballing, because it costs 2,5 times more when it goes wrong... (Have some examples if you need them). But on the other side, if it works at 10 nl, why wouldn't it work at 25 nl...

So, quite a post. And thank you if you came here reading through it. It's just a general question but if you need more detailed info about my playing, hand histories or whatever to be able to give advice, I'm happy to post it.

Welcome to FTR. Thats quite a first post .

Since youve lurked for so long Ill assume you have read all of the stickys in the begginner circle and understand bankroll managment. If not then thats your first stop.

25 NL isnt an awful lot different from 10NL. Its certainly possible to beat 10NL for a bigger rate than you are at the moment but as it is you are still killing that game so Id say just move up when you have the cash for 25NL. You wont beat it for as much at first but you should still be able to beat it. The two most important things when you move up are to NOT change your game and to not think that the new level is full of pros who are constantly making moves on you. 25NL is still mostly straightforward players with some maniacs mixed in and it doesnt take long to spot who the maniacs are. DONT THINK 25NL PLAYERS ARE ALWAYS PUTTING MOVES ON YOU! I couldnt beat 25NL until i realised these first impressions were utter nonsense.

Do you play full ring? Those stats are nitty but adaquate for full ring (except the not playing AK from early position. There really is no excuse for that ). Id play AK and AQ from any position and maybe even AJ depending on table conditions. AK especially is a very strong hand that you should be playing from any position (and raising).

You can certainly limp hands like 67o and A2s from the SB or late position if there are a couple of other limpers. Unlike limit, you cant really say what pot odds you need to limp these hands preflop. Its far more a function of how likely the other players are to pay you off when you hit, how big the stacksizes are and how easy it will be for you to draw (or buy the pot when you miss). In general Ill limp along with 2 reasonably loose-passive limpers. Obviously the tighter they are the more of them you need (since there is less of a chance theyll hit a hand theyll felt).

If I were you Id get used to playing the strongest aces (AK, AQ) from early position for a few sessions and then move on up to 25NL.

If you want any more help than that its down to posting individual hands or strategy questions and hanging out in the FTR chatroom or ventrillo.

Welcome

aSssuming your bankroll is $500 whenon the $25NL tables, you should focus on the other things. Don't tell us that your stats are "about" 14/4 or 5. take a couple of $10NL buy ins and get poker tracker. You would be suprised how many people think they are something and find out something else. If you are 8 tabling or even 4 tableing, there is no way to follow all the action and your stats. GL

wow, when you make a first post, you go all the way.

i started pretty much the same way, but i wanted to go up to 100 NL as fast as possible. so, i chased bonuses and bought PT quickly. but, most importantly...BR mgmnt, just like you said.

however, 14/5 will get paid at 10, less at 25, imo. as the players, while not very good, are a bit better. your W$aSD of 58% is right on target (upper 50's to lower 60's is ideal). the further you move up, the more you will realize you lose action on the hands you play. you simply dont play enough of them for people to get in there with you unless they hit a set or flush...therefore, when they play back at you, they are not bluffing...for the most part. the table maniac may still be bluffing, but the rest are not. notice that, and fold.

however, i started "opening up my game." if i were you...

1) raise and RR AK like it were AA unless you "have a read" on your opponent as "tight" or "passive."
2) in a pot where you have position, and more than 2 limpers, limp/call the raise w/ 89s and better, AXs, and any other hand that plays well in mulit-way pots. however, fold unless you hit a very strong hand (one that beats KK/AA) or a nut-type draw (not a backdoor draw).
3) learn how and when to "protect your hand." this requires some research and experimenting (imo, at a limit game...or forum).

although #3 may be a bit unrelated, it will give you an idea as to when you should call, and when you need to "drive out other marginal hands" that could beat you.

do this stuff at the 10 NL level, or move up. it wont make much of a difference, as the play is pretty much the same.

and as for your 4 buy-in swing at 25, it may be "fear" or too much respect for the level, but it may also be your first real test with "variance." and dont worry, if you play poker long enough, you will experience a worse one...we all will/have.

just keep playing the game you are comfortable with, and slowly mix in some newer "ideas." some you will stick with, some you wont. but, you will never stop growing as a player, and therefore, should always be getting better...no matter what your win-rate says (over the short-term).

keep us posted.

dont play 25nl on stars. Stay on purple lounge (prima) or even find another site.
Trust me when i say playing 25nl on stars is/can be like playing 50nl on other sites. Theres no need to play aainst half competent players when you are first learning/beginning to improve.

Aim to have your PFR about 2/3 of your VP (say, 14/9, 18/12) - then you'll be forced to make decisions earlier on about what to play and what to dump. It'll also make your play less transparent to thinking players - should you come across any - and you'll pick up more blinds when everyone folds.

But Pelion's right - 25NL is NOT full of bluffers and sharks. I'd say 80%+ of all bets are totally honest, i.e. they have a decent hand. Not only does this mean you can fold when you have nothing, but it means when you have drawing hands you can accurately work out whether you're getting good enough odds to stay in.

If you want to make any changes to your game, go down to 4 tables (or fewer) and take more care over the plays you make. If you 8-table and are feeling nervous you will not be able to play optimally. Stay within your comfort zone, by and large, and the move up will be pretty painless.

First of all, thanks for the input (quite fun to know people actually read this whole thing...)

As for AK and AQ, I play those hands pretty agressive. It's the AJ I'm playing a little bit more cautious (too often got outkicked by AQ or AK).

I allready use Pokertracker and I'm running as I mentioned. It just depends a little on how many hands I go back (it gets worse the further I go back, which is a good sign I think).

In order to get a higher PFR% I should raise more pre-flop with the more marginal hands I allready play instead of limping with them. This would mean I also have to raise occasionaly with medium and lower pocket pairs instead of using them for the 'limp-call-hit a set and stack off-strategy'. Or is it more about raising more in unopened pots in late position with a primary goal to steal the blinds? It seems to me that raising with medium strong hands at the lower stakes won't work because people call more, so you really need to have a hand. But raising all the strong pairs plus strong aces (like I do now) just gets me to a pre-flop raise of about 4-5% (4.36% according to PT ).

Think I'll just go and sit down at the 25nl tables then and post the trouble hands I walk into.

And thanks again for your advice.

raising your pfr also intails 3betting, occasionally AQ+, 55+, and SC's.

i stress OCCASIONALLY! maybe i should say...RARELY, but it will help a bit.

Betting too small with hands like AJ or KQ means you're likely to have more callers, or even people re-raising you, which increases the chance of being drawn out on and reduces the chance of you knowing where you are come the flop. If you choose to play them (and I would, though maybe not in EP), bet them properly, play them fast, and if you are played back at, make a careful study of whether you're likely to be dominated by AK or up against a loose fish with A6.

Aggression involves knowing when to stop putting money into pots just as much as making bets. If you raise AJ and get called and see a flop of A83 you have to bet it; if you get raised (or on the turn) then you might want to fold it. There's no dishonour in folding, especially with hands that will win you a lot of pots the rest of the time.

IMO, as well as many others, you should be raising all PP's in all positions.

Why you never limp PP

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP ($12.15)
CO ($12.60)
Hero ($25.85)
SB ($13.75)
BB ($20.20)
UTG ($5.40)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K, T.
1 fold, MP calls $0.25, CO calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1, 2 folds, MP calls $0.75, CO calls $0.75.

Flop: ($3.35) 7, 4, T (3 players)
MP bets $2, CO folds, Hero raises to $4, MP calls $2.

Turn: ($11.35) T (2 players)
MP bets $1, Hero raises to $2, MP calls $1.

River: ($15.35) 8 (2 players)
MP checks, Hero : checks

*** SHOW DOWN ***

killogram: shows [4s 4c] (a full house, Fours full of Tens)
trainer_jyms: mucks hand
killogram collected $14.65 from pot

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

Why you never limp PP

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP ($12.15)
CO ($12.60)
Hero ($25.85)
SB ($13.75)
BB ($20.20)
UTG ($5.40)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K, T.
1 fold, MP calls $0.25, CO calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1, 2 folds, MP calls $0.75, CO calls $0.75.

Flop: ($3.35) 7, 4, T (3 players)
MP bets $2, CO folds, Hero raises to $4, MP calls $2.

Turn: ($11.35) T (2 players)
MP bets $1, Hero raises to $2, MP calls $1.

River: ($15.35) 8 (2 players)
MP checks, Hero : checks

*** SHOW DOWN ***

killogram: shows [4s 4c] (a full house, Fours full of Tens)
trainer_jyms: mucks hand
killogram collected $14.65 from pot

I'm confused by this post, is it sarcasm? Why is villain not value betting the river here? Sorry if I've missed something.

Originally Posted by Trashcona

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

Why you never limp PP

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP ($12.15)
CO ($12.60)
Hero ($25.85)
SB ($13.75)
BB ($20.20)
UTG ($5.40)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K, T.
1 fold, MP calls $0.25, CO calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1, 2 folds, MP calls $0.75, CO calls $0.75.

Flop: ($3.35) 7, 4, T (3 players)
MP bets $2, CO folds, Hero raises to $4, MP calls $2.

Turn: ($11.35) T (2 players)
MP bets $1, Hero raises to $2, MP calls $1.

River: ($15.35) 8 (2 players)
MP checks, Hero : checks

*** SHOW DOWN ***

killogram: shows [4s 4c] (a full house, Fours full of Tens)
trainer_jyms: mucks hand
killogram collected $14.65 from pot

I'm confused by this post, is it sarcasm? Why is villain not value betting the river here? Sorry if I've missed something.

Im not sure either but you cant use this hand to justify it much. Villain played this hand terribly. A semi-decent player limping preflop here would have taken a chunk off you if not a whole stack. In this particular hand a limp probably does better since you put him on 9T, TJ, TQ alot more often than AT so he could probably have stacked you here. As happened he butchered it and you got off very cheaply.

Originally Posted by Flups

In order to get a higher PFR% I should raise more pre-flop with the more marginal hands I allready play instead of limping with them. This would mean I also have to raise occasionaly with medium and lower pocket pairs instead of using them for the 'limp-call-hit a set and stack off-strategy'.

My point was that the limp/ call preflop is often small PP from early position. He did just that. I had a shit hand and was only trying to see what he wanted to do. I put him on the Ax flush draw by calling or the set. He was looking for me to bet hard on the river and I foiled him. My point goes back to limping PP or raising. He should of stacked me, he played it wrong.