Implied odds... can I call?

Button is 32/5 over 22 hands, so not much to go on. No notes.
I've been running at 25/11 over 65 hands at this table.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG+1 ($2.45)
MP1 ($2.48)
MP2 ($0.95)
MP3 ($2.17)
Hero (CO) ($4.31)
Button ($2.07)
SB ($1.15)
BB ($7.38)
UTG ($2)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 10, J
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.02, 2 folds, Hero bets $0.10, Button calls $0.10, SB calls $0.09, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.34) 3, 8, 6 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.30, Button calls $0.30, SB calls $0.30

Turn: ($1.24) 9 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, Button bets $0.46, 1 fold, Hero?

I got more or less 4:1 on my money here, and have 6 outs for the nuts, and two more to make a straight, losing only to flush, which is unlikely for him to have. How much money do I need to make on the river if I hit to justify a call? I have to consider a heart making my straight, not because I'm scared he has the flush, but because maybe he folds a hand he might have called if it was not a heart. I figure I need to make 50c more on the river to make up for the bad turn odds, but I kinda plucked that figure from quick estimates while my time was ticking. Surely his remaining stack is clearly past the required amount? It's fairly obvious I called, and I'll go into the chat argument later, but I'm curious to know what you guys would do here.

4:1?? I thhink look again. Also this is no limit, pot odds are a very far second to implied odds. Lastly, you could have as many as 10 outs here depending on a range ir you would like to hazard a guess.

The pot at the turn is $1.24

He bets 46c.

$1.24 + 46 = $1.70

So I'm calling 46c into $1.70

It's nearly 4:1

didn't see that you said "about" 4:1. I think when calculating outs and pot odds you really need to be more accurate in calculations. Now if you want to talk about implied odds instead, the pot odds are only a small consideration. This is No Limit, so I would tend to think more about ranges and stacks remaining and less about the actual odd to call.

Seems like a pretty easy call. You have a loose player who probably pays off often. Youre getting almost the immediate odds you need for the straight. Your T or J may win sometimes. You also have the advantage that a lot of the cards that make your straight will make him a worse straight or a 2 pair.

Pretty easy turn call.. I don't like the flop cbet.

Originally Posted by jyms

didn't see that you said "about" 4:1. I think when calculating outs and pot odds you really need to be more accurate in calculations. Now if you want to talk about implied odds instead, the pot odds are only a small consideration. This is No Limit, so I would tend to think more about ranges and stacks remaining and less about the actual odd to call.

I would rather be accurate, but the timer is ticking... 40c into $1.60 is exactly 4:1, so I estimated I was a little behind that, but only by a fraction. That's a second and a half of my time taken up. I already know I'm hitting 1 in 5.6 times. So that gives me more time to put him on a range. Even then, range is not a great factor on the turn, I'm drawing to beat any hand. Range is only relevant if the river is a ten or jack, or perhaps a heart, but it won't take me long to dismiss BDFD. I'm drawing on the nuts, so my concern is whether I'll get paid off on the river if I make my hand, so that's the only reason I'm thinking about what he has. But his stack will be so much lower than the pot if I shove the river that he has to call pretty much any hand frop A9 up. So what you're saying about pot odds and implied odds is basically what I did... screw the bad price, he's paying me if I hit. I took about 3 seconds to call.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB

Hero (CO) ($4.31)
Button ($2.07)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 10, J

Flop: ($0.34) 3, 8, 6 (3 players)

Turn: ($1.24) 9 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, Button bets $0.46, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.46

River: ($2.16) Q (2 players)
Hero bets $1.21, Button calls $1.21 (All-In)

Results:
Button had 7, 5 (straight, nine high).
Hero had 10, J (straight, Queen high).
Outcome: Hero won $4.39

So, now we know what he had, what happens next is just too funny.

Chat:
(him) wow. that was one bad suckout.
(him) i mean, real bad.
(me) yup
(him) how do you make that call?
(me) implied odds
(him) your implied odds were terrible
(me) did you pay me off?
(him) you need lessons
(me) nice flop call

Of course, then we get into a nice little argument. He can't see that his flop call is worse than my turn call! He pays a near pot sized bet with an open ender, then complains when I pay a third of the pot with the same draw! And he tried to tell me I had bad implied odds! After paying me off! Genius! Only at 2nl!

I don't think his flop call is that bad, because if he hits the turn, he has two rounds of betting to make up the difference, and besides, I could quite easily be c-betting a missed hand, which of course is exactly what my flop bet is, meaning he has 6 more outs. I think he can fold pre flop, but then he's on the button, I might make that call against the CO raiser if I knew he was playing one in four hands, certainly if I were playing looser than the raiser.

I gotta be honest, I posted this hand for a little morale support, I just wanted to know it's the right call. I don't mind making bad calls, so long as I recognise when I'm doing it so I can cut it out. I want to ensure I understand implied odds, because I don't wanna be the suck out donk who just says the two words without knowing what they mean.

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Pretty easy turn call.. I don't like the flop cbet.

Yeah, fair enough. I guess I was trying to rep the pp to make hands like Ax fold.

Originally Posted by tugger

Chat:
(him) wow. that was one bad suckout.
(him) i mean, real bad.
(me) yup
(him) how do you make that call?
(me) implied odds
(him) your implied odds were terrible
(me) did you pay me off?
(him) you need lessons
(me) nice flop call

Of course, then we get into a nice little argument. He can't see that his flop call is worse than my turn call! He pays a near pot sized bet with an open ender, then complains when I pay a third of the pot with the same draw! And he tried to tell me I had bad implied odds! After paying me off! Genius! Only at 2nl!

please don't discuss poker at the table. Just type "lol nh" and then shut up. Just think of all the hot-dogs
http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/...Number=5606187

The chat ITH is -EV. Don't teach villain anything and don't teach anybody else at the table anything. You don't want any fish to have some kind of revelation and start reading FTR do you?

just say you had a 'feeling' lol

Pretty bad spot to cbet, you are basically committing yourself against the effective stack of 100 bbs. (you stuck in 25% of the effective stack with the cbet)

Since you did cbet and commit yourself, once your hand improves on the turn your only real play is to shove imo. You might have some fold equity (lol at fe in 2NL) against a 2nd pair type hand or a draw.

Try to avoid spots like this... you are allowing your opponents by default to outplay you.