I'm an idiot I think. Help me realize

I was up from $100 to $300 on paradise and managed to bring myself down to $52.91 over about a month playing $25nl. I was originally playing 25NL to clear a bonus and kinda had to go that high but now I find myself going back...

On jan 4th I "vowed" (yeah right) to make a BR structure and adhere to it. Well it was going great. I started @ 2$nl and made some cash, Got it up to $96.43 and said why not try 10NL ( I was supposed to only go @ 200$ or 20 buyins as per my "agreement"). Get going on 10NL and its great i'm up to $204.08. Then the 25NL greed comes in. I jump in and lose my stack. Then again...now im worried. I stopped taking records. I start playing crap cause my premiums are giving me beats what seems like every time I get them. Im being out played and out bet and drawing on shite. I feel like I dont know what the hell im doing. Before I know it im down to 60$ again... To where I started almost a month ago. I'm back at 10$NL and it still going down. I have been up near 200 countless times and always seem to lose most of it and have to start over from a few bucks. Guys beat my ass or or something I need some some discipline!!

u suck at life
stop being a little bitch.

(did that work????)
( =D )

Man, your problem is a lack of discipline.

I've been there too.

I'm currently at 170 bucks in my 'roll and I am not intending to move out of the $2 NL tables (also at Paradise, I might add) until I get to around $250. Yup, you heard me right. Then I'll move up to the TEN BUCK tables. I do not feel comfortable without a big 'roll behind me. I now know that through experience. Maybe you need a bit less, but still, at least 150 if you single table, and more if you multi.

OK, so that's 'roll management covered. Next is your game.

I dunno if I've seen you at the $2 tables or not, I'll have to check PT and see if I've met you, but is your game good enough? Are you consistently winning at $2 NL? Do you have Poker Tracker? Don't forget, either, that the $2 tables are slightly different than the 10 dollar ones.

But man, to ease your head a bit, I've played for over two years, much like you are now, jumping around games and playing rather foolishly and blindly. Only about 4 months ago did I decide to follow Aokrongly's advice and get a simple, disciplined game under my belt. It's a tight, tight one, but now I'm feeling much more comfortable with changing up my style depending on the nature of the table. Not much change, mind you, since you still get way more callers at the $2 tables than at the $10 ones. But anyhow, you get my drift, I think.

OK, I'm going to check you out on PT and see if there's anything more that I can add.

And remember, you need PT or something like that to know if you're doing all right. Oh, and a lot of hands. I used to think that 1000 hands told me something. WRONG! If you're a winning player after about ten or 15 thousand hands, then maybe you're doing something right.

Jigs

Just checked PT, and out of my 16,000 $2 NL hands, I see you down for a total of two.

How many hands have you played?

Originally Posted by shaun98si

I need some some discipline!!

Enuf said. The two killers of winning money consistently are - not being able to fold on the flop, turn or river when your good starting hand is not helped or obviously beat, and loosening up to see if you can get luck AND THEN CHASING!!

You evidently know how to play winning poker you do it regularly only to give back your winnings. There's a chance you're a bad player who is just getting lucky from time to time - but we'll say that's not the case, that you do have at least a NL10 game. Which is nothing to sneeze at - consistent winning poker at any level is a solid foundation. So you need to, as you say, is discipline.

Here's how you get it - CHANGE YOUR BELIEFS ABOUT POKER, MONEY, YOURSELF, whatever you need to change. Here are examples:

(BTW, most of us don't know WHAT are true beliefs are. We don't spot beliefs that create losing situations in our life - that we CAN'T get out of UNTIL we change the underlying BELIEF. That's where you are right now.)

Here are some example things you may believe that are not good for discipline - there are other beliefs that hurt your game in other ways, but these impact discipline. (you may have to search your soul to find the true beliefs that are making you loose. )

- The players on this table suck SO BAD that I can beat them without worry.
- I DESERVE to win because (I've studied poker books/i've won alot in the past/my mommy loves me/i've had a long run of cold cards/i haven't won YET TONIGHT and I'm due/etc.
- Poker should ENTERTAIN ME, so when it doesn't I'm ALLOWED to do things that make it more interesting to me.
- Every time I get up this much I end up GIVING IT BACK.
- I can TAKE A CHANCE here. I have played so disciplined and good up to this point. Others have been catching the flush all night, it's MY TURN.
- GOD! My big pocket pair CAN'T BE BET... AGAIN!!!! That guy is bluffing the flush/straight/trips/whatever.

Examine your deepest emotional payoff's when it comes to playing poker. Intellectually you may THINK you play for money, but inside - EMOTIONALLY - you may be playing to prove how smart you are, because you are bored with your job and want to escape to the life of a poker pro, because your wife is always nagging you about not helping around the house and you need something to make you feel better... Right? It turns out that when emotional motivators come into play it turns out that 1+1 equals TREE (not Three, Tree - you know with leaves). Sometimes that thing we think we are doing for one reason turns out to just be something insanely different. I just bring this up because if you examine your motivations and emotional payoff from poker then you can ADDRESS IT and then play a cleaner game for the Right REasons.

OK, so what SHOULD you believe to keep this 200 to 60 to 200 to 60 roller coaster from continuing? The short answer is only you can tell - but here are some things I've had to address in my own Belief System:

- Am I really good enough to consistently win at poker, or have I just been getting lucky?
- I can play mindless poker even if the table dynamics have changed noticably (gotten tighter, looser, more agressive, etc.)
- When I'm way ahead for a session that means I'm "running good" and I can "take more chances"
- Since the table has only seen me make rock solid plays I need to throw in a bonehead move or big bluff, that'll really get em.

Healthy beliefs:
- Systematic Poker Play wins money long term.
- Poker is not here to enterain you, it's here to make you money over many months and years. (if THAT entertains you then great)
- You can be beat with just about ANY cards on just about ANY hand by just about ANYBODY. So you have to be aware, engaged, and smart.
- There are no such things as Hot streaks, cold streaks, or anything else. Poker is statistical from a card perspective, all else has to do with your method of play and Table Dynamics (both of which can be understood if you study them).
- If you played the same style in the same circumstances and won over 5000 hands then you'll probably win over 50000 hands. The ONLY reason that might change is if the CIRCUMSTANCES change or your STYLE changes.
- The ONLY things you control are what you do - i.e. keeping records, selecting hands to play and how to play them, studying the game, preparing mentally, playing within your bankroll. All else is out of your control. SO, if you choose NOT to keep records, carefully select hands to play and how to play them, study the game, prepare mentally, play within your bankroll, etc - THEN POKER IS ENTIRELY AND COMPLETELY, IRREVOKABLY AND TOTALLY OUT OF YOUR CONTROL. You might as well play craps, or push a button on a slot machine. (now, if you BELIVE ONLY THIS ONE THING can you see how discipline wouldn't ever be an issue. If you BELIEVE this like you Believe in a higher power or Believe your mother loves you, then how can you have a discipline issue, EVER?) All you have to do is Decide that is true.

You can decide that ANYTHING is true. Racists absolutely believe that what they think is true - and they live their lives accordingly. Religious people do the same. One day they DECIDE to believe in God, AND AFTERWARD they start seeing evidence that they are right... EVERYWHERE. Because the human brain is such that we FIND things that support our beliefs and we DISREGARD things that don't. So DECIDE to believe things whole heartedly that will cause you to HAVE TO play in a disciplined way and make it so you CAN'T do otherwise - because it would defy a fundamental belief - and all of a sudden you will see support for that belief and disregard contrary (i.e. false) information against it.

There you go. you asked how to fix the problem of going 200 to 60 to 200 to 60. Believe it or not, this is the answer. BELIEVE IT.... OR NOT!!!

God told me to tell you this.

Hey Jiggus you're the first guy i've known from the Netherlands, although I dated a chick from the Netherregions once. Is that nearby?

Oh cool, I knew a chicks nether-regions once too!

Originally Posted by iRICHeyes

Oh cool, I knew a chicks nether-regions once too!

Damn, you beat me to that joke by a minute...

Thanks guys and especially AOK. I have alot to think about. I been having alot of doubt this week as to how my game is. Am I just lucky alot of the times? I'm not sure.. I feel I play solid poker 90% of the time. But how would I really know if i'm good or not? I guess pokertracker is the answer... Some days I feel I can read ppls cards and never make a bad play. Other days its like im a baby learning how to walk for the first time. The game really messes with me but I really do have a desire to succeed and I KNOW I have the ability to do so. I have a feeling if I stuck to 10NL after I got to 200 I would be UP not down. Its my own dumb greed that got the better of me. I'm gonna go over AOK's post again and understand fully what was said. Alot of meat there. Thanks guys!!

Problem is, if the 10% of the time you're not playing solid poker is when you're calling all-ins with no more than TP and pushing all-in with ill-judged out of positoon bluffs, then that's going to eat away the profits you've got from playing well and then some.

You need to master the basics (by which I mean anything from not playing Ax to knowing when to fold an overpair to betting for information to taking advantage of position to giving your opponents bad odds etc. etc) and play with absolute, stone cold discipline.

If you are contemplating a non-tight, non-standard move, you need to know WHY you're making that move before you press the button, and you need to be convinced that it is at least as good a move as a more cautious, standard alternative.

You are my hero, aok. When I grow up I want to be just like you.

Originally Posted by aokrongly

Hey Jiggus you're the first guy i've known from the Netherlands, although I dated a chick from the Netherregions once. Is that nearby?

Just to clarify a bit. I'm FROM Canada, but live in this Hellhole. Soon to be living in Scotland, though. A matter of weeks now.

Nether regions, indeed. It's just a reclaimed swamp.

Originally Posted by Warpe

Originally Posted by iRICHeyes

Oh cool, I knew a chicks nether-regions once too!

Damn, you beat me to that joke by a minute...

Great minds Warpe, great minds...

Originally Posted by biondino

If you are contemplating a non-tight, non-standard move, you need to know WHY you're making that move before you press the button, and you need to be convinced that it is at least as good a move as a more cautious, standard alternative.

Amen.


AMEN.


Fucking AMEN!

Originally Posted by biondino

Problem is, if the 10% of the time you're not playing solid poker is when you're calling all-ins with no more than TP and pushing all-in with ill-judged out of positoon bluffs, then that's going to eat away the profits you've got from playing well and then some.

You need to master the basics (by which I mean anything from not playing Ax to knowing when to fold an overpair to betting for information to taking advantage of position to giving your opponents bad odds etc. etc) and play with absolute, stone cold discipline.

If you are contemplating a non-tight, non-standard move, you need to know WHY you're making that move before you press the button, and you need to be convinced that it is at least as good a move as a more cautious, standard alternative.

Man did that simple advice ever help me. I started back @ 2nl after originally posting this. Right now im back in 10NL and my roll is at about 210$ and growing steady. I'm gonna keep up the 10NL till at least 400...maybe even 600-700. One thing that helped my cashgame alot was watching the cardrunner video's. They do preach a lag style but the talk about positional play really made it click and I find i'm "seeing" alot more than I did previously. I also bought poker tracker a couple days back. Once I pass 2500 hands I'll post my stats. So far its looking great tho.

Poker tracker is extremely useful for monitoring your success.

If I were you, I would play at 10nl until you get to around 500, and then you should move up to 25nl ASAP. Truthfully, I found 25 to be much easier.

Then quad or tri-table the 25nl to infinity and beyond. I wouldn't even stop at 1000 or 1500. You can't be sure that you are ready to move up until you are sure that you are successful at your current level. (successful at 25nl = greater than 15bb/100 over at least 10000-15000 hands)

By that time you will be more than rolled for 50nl and can play with confidence and a lack of attachment to fifty dollars (cuz' your roll will be like 2k).

Good luck.