I see everyone limp-call preflop- Is this right?

Okay to say this is a common scenario would be an undersatement.

EP limp, MP limp, CO limp, BU raises to 5xBB, blinds fold
EP call 4BB
MP call
Co call

I've heard the addage "I'f it's good enough to call with, it's good enough to raise with" which seems true enough; I mean, it's better to be the agressor for a number of reasons.

Despite this, it seems everywhere I play poker people limp-call repeatedly. The phrase "in for a penny, in for a pound" comes to mind. I understand limp-raising a monster from EP, possibly limp-calling small pairs, but wtf? It seems many people just start dreaming about the flop and / or want to see it badly for one reason or another.

Yes, I understand that after 2 limp-calls, the Button is getting good odds for the go-ahead, and the principle regarding that move. I guess the my question can be dumbed down to the following:

Is limp-calling as stupid as I think it is?

Secondary: When do you limp-call and with what?
Yes I limp call consistently but not nearly as much as I see other do it.

At the stakes I play($10NL), I'll usually limp call with 22-88 from early to mid position. I'll think about if I'm in late position with SC's and I have good pot odds/implied odds.

Lots of donks want to see the flop as cheaply as possible. Raising goes against that.

i think what you say is true about 3-betting hands you open-limped with, but it sends a lot of money into the pot when you are oop.

pp's <TT at lower stakes are calls from anywhere to me.
sc's while others (3+) have also called the raise in front of you.
and AXs/KXs with the same conditions are calls for me.

if a hand does well multi-way, and favorable conditions are met, i will likely just call a raise.

however, if i want to thin the field with AQo or others that do not do well mulit-way, and i think i can "sqeeze" the others out, i 3bet...although rarely.

of course, all of this requires a decent read on your opponent(s) , especially if you are trying to isolate one for a HU battle.

Originally Posted by AHiltz

Lots of donks want to see the flop as cheaply as possible. Raising goes against that.

so, are you saying you 3bet w/ KTs? 22? A8s into a 4-way pot?

all extremely -EV, imo, but worthy of a call...maybe not A8s.

Preflop mistakes are a lot smaller than postflop mistakes. I limp call more than recommended, but I don't make a lot of mistakes later.

Originally Posted by Chopper

Originally Posted by AHiltz

Lots of donks want to see the flop as cheaply as possible. Raising goes against that.

so, are you saying you 3bet w/ KTs? 22? A8s into a 4-way pot?

all extremely -EV, imo, but worthy of a call...maybe not A8s.

Why is 3-betting any two cards -EV? It's very situational. Sometimes it's very +EV.

Playing a hand after you raise (especially with position) is soooo much easier. So yes it should be bad from your perspective.

Picture this, 4 limpers, you call from BTN with KJ. Flop is K75s, someone bets, 1 caller, you raise/call??? If you raise from button, everyone calls, you cbet the same flop and get one, maybe two callers do you feel better about your hand?

in cash games i am raising if i'm playing (assuming i'm first to open the pot), regardless of what it is. however,

lately in the early/mid stages of MTTs i've been limp/calling small to mid pairs in early and mid position. i do this because allows me to see a cheaper flop. if you raise from EP/MP with scs or mid pair, often times you are reraised and are forced to dump your hand. if you limp/call you can get it cheaper because you'll usually only have to call the one raise from a LP player, which is the same cost as if you had raised and got a few callers.

the only hands i will limp in EP are low pocket pairs. 22-88 as someone mentioned above. i don't think i'm limping any other hands. i might limp AJ or KQ or AT. (usually i raise AJ and KQ utg and fold AT) depending on the table.

limping in LP isn't too bad at all when you're not 1st to open. i usually bet in LP if there are 1 or limpers in the pot. but it's all situational. i will limp 22-66 tho if i'm on the button/CO with 1 limper. but sometimes i'll even raise with 22.

in LP when 1st to open i will very, very rarely limp. (again it's situational tho. eg. if there is a calling station in the blinds. i might limp instead)

i think that the amount of limping that goes on is too much tho and it is weak play.

so, are you saying you 3bet w/ KTs? 22? A8s into a 4-way pot?

all extremely -EV, imo, but worthy of a call...maybe not A8s.

yes definitely. if there are 2 limpers before me and i'm on the button i will very often bet hands like KTs, 78s, T9 - a wide range of hands. 22 and other low PPs i will limp tho to try and catch a set and stack somebody.
i don't think raising in LP with weaker holdings is -EV. i think it's very +EV. A lot of the time you pick up the blinds. and when you do see a flop. there are usually only 1 or 2 players in it and you have position. when it's checked to you - you can cbet a lot and take the pot away. when you do hit a hand you can make the most out of it with your position

pretend you are bot: Your program is to play any reasonable looking hand pre-flop, but only continue post flop with 2 pair or better, or a strong draw. What you "leak" preflop you will make up for in implied odds when you hit a hand.

Therefore, you should limp-call almost any hand you are playing (PPs, SCs, high connectors, AXs, KXs, and for balance may as well do the same for AT+).

Is this a good algorithm for winning at small stakes NLHE? Not really, BUT it's not the worst one either, and it's easy to do. If everyone is playing the same loose/passive game, then it just comes down to cards - and fish are there to gamble.

So, long winded: Don't play like this. Play with people who do. Exploit them.

ty for the responses- i'm relieved that some ppl agree that it is a weak play. (folding to a raise is unheard of at microstakes, especially preflop).

Also, for clarification, when I was talking about open-limping early, with the intent of reraising it after a raise, I was talking about doing this with KK and AA. Sometimes it's better to limp - reraise KK+ in EP (though this would not be recommended in LP; there, just raise it).

A strong player limp-reraised from EP after I raised AKo from the big blind at a home game. I thought for a real long time, and due to the fact that I expected KK+, I mucked it (what would I hope for on a flop?). In this game we all had what I referred to as the "burger king power chip" (from some blackjack program on tv) which would allow each player to force someone to reveal to their cards after a hand was over. This "forcing to show" could only be used in one instance for the 5+ hour night.

He showed queens. Bastard.

Since you automatically put someone on KK+ when they limp/raise that makes it terrible to play KK+ that way against thinking players. DUCY?

"It seems many people just start dreaming about the flop"

...or they just wait for profitable situations after flop. The better they are and their reading skills, the less often they need to hit. Limp-calling is yet another line, but it has bad name because every poor player uses it for wrong reason.

Limp call only small PP's and play fit or fold postflop = you're easy to read. But if you add some small SC's, light flop raising here and there etc. - you can balance your game and be less vulnerable to exploitation & attack weak points of opponent's strategy.

3) Your opponents' habits of playing a large spectrum of hands at whim is not necessarily bad for them! Sometimes it can be closely in tune with game theory and can cause them to "randomize" their decisions effectively.

4) When you try to analyse poker strategy, you need to realize that you simply can't say how most opponents would play a hand or--in many cases--if they would have played a hand. They often don't know this themselves until the very last second!

My intent of this thread was neither to:
1. expose the leaks of my preflop game (I know it sucks),
nor to
2. discuss preflop play in its entirety

My comment on limp-calling--------------------------

Aggressive, profitable mindset: Should I bet / raise here? Should I fold here? Calling is considered as a last resort.

Passive, donk mindset: (empty) ... hmm sure I'll pay that, I want to see if my gutshot comes!
limp-call-check-call-check-call-check-call-muck-whine-repeat

limp-calling is sooooo weak. Man up and raise, or get the hell outta there.

If you should limp, don't feel obligated to call a raise that's 20% of your stack with 24s. Just because it was a "good idea" to pay a blind for it doesn't mean it's a good idea to pay 10x that amount now. Don't get offended because your limp was turned into dead money; calling just increases the amt. of chips that will eventually be moving the other way- get out now. Raises mean more than "oops I hafta put more in the middle now."

Ignore all of this advice and you will seamlessly blend in with the thousands of other online donks responsible for the car payments of many.

If it seems I'm a little frustrated with limp-calling, I am. When I raise to 1/3 of everyone's stack in a tourney with AA, and get 5 limpers calling that raise, I get frustrated.
Yes 30% in a 5 way might be good "pot odds" but it makes for a helluva lot more variance than I would prefer, and usually just means I'll be railing with the consolation that "my ODDS were good". I understand this but it doesn't do much for me after the fact. Also, people espousing limp-calling as OPTIMAL play is absurd. maybe in certain unique situations.

Calling in general sucks.

So wtf? Is this whole thread intended for you to offer your "final opinion"?

Originally Posted by bigslikk

Is limp-calling as stupid as I think it is?

Secondary: When do you limp-call and with what?

Yes I limp call consistently but not nearly as much as I see other do it.

so 3 distinct feelings, bad, marginal, good?

Who's your target audience for your rant?

This thread in general sucks

You make no sense bigslikk.

1) limp calling is bad play
2) you hate it when people do it.

You want people to play well? What, do you hate money?

Originally Posted by Rondavu

Preflop mistakes are a lot smaller than postflop mistakes. I limp call more than recommended, but I don't make a lot of mistakes later.

I play the same and think about the game the same. Postflop play > Preflop play. I think people pay too much attention to preflop stats and not enough attention on postflop play.

I raise or fold and rarelly call.....nuff said.

Originally Posted by bigslikk

ty for the responses- i'm relieved that some ppl agree that it is a weak play. (folding to a raise is unheard of at microstakes, especially preflop).

Also, for clarification, when I was talking about open-limping early, with the intent of reraising it after a raise, I was talking about doing this with KK and AA. Sometimes it's better to limp - reraise KK+ in EP (though this would not be recommended in LP; there, just raise it).

A strong player limp-reraised from EP after I raised AKo from the big blind at a home game. I thought for a real long time, and due to the fact that I expected KK+, I mucked it (what would I hope for on a flop?). In this game we all had what I referred to as the "burger king power chip" (from some blackjack program on tv) which would allow each player to force someone to reveal to their cards after a hand was over. This "forcing to show" could only be used in one instance for the 5+ hour night.

He showed queens. Bastard.

your AK is still a drawing hand and you're OOP. folding isn't bad in general (depends how deep the stacks are).