How would you have extracted value from this hand?

Just sat down at the table, so they have no reads on me. I checked hopping someone would hit something.... someone did....i hit my 4th 7.

Was hoping someone would hit something, then community showed the last 6 and I thought maybe I could shove all in as if I'm shoving the community... and have someone with the 6 call me... didn't work.... Any way to have extracted more value? I'm thinking I should have done a small .06 bet on the river... get a few callers...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($1.96)
MP1 ($0.63)
MP2 ($2.20)
CO ($1.50)
Button ($2.48)
SB ($1.31)
Hero (BB) ($1.98)

Preflop: Hero is BB with ,
UTG calls $0.02, MP1 calls $0.02, 2 folds, Button calls $0.02, 1 fold, Hero bets $0.08, UTG calls $0.06, MP1 calls $0.06, Button calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.33) , , (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, Button checks

Turn: ($0.33) (4 players)
Hero bets $0.04, UTG calls $0.04, MP1 calls $0.04, 1 fold

River: ($0.45) (3 players)
Hero bets $1.86 (All-In), 2 folds

Total pot: $0.45 | Rake: $0

Results:
Hero didn't show 7, 7 (nothing).
Outcome: Hero won $0.45

Bet more on the turn. If someone in the hand has an A they will probably call and if anyone has a higher PP than 77 they may raise. Once the next 6 falls you wont get any more action since a is pretty improbable for their ranges unless they are total donks. Other than that there's not much you can do. A lot of the time you just can't extract value cause people brick the flop.

Whenever I see similar topic titles, my first thought is "Bet".

On the flop, hands that may call are 6x,54,87,58s,88-TT,A7, maybe some overcards...If they do have 6x, you're going to make more money betting all three streets than slowplaying.

Turn card sucks since all that will likely call now is 6x (which lost value). Double paired boards are no good for Flush or Straight draws. Still doesn't hurt to bet now and hope they make a huge mistake by continuing.

I understand that I'd make more money betting all three streets.... but wouldn't it be worth letting the turn come out to maybe "push" someone to bet? Make them think no one has anything? Where as a straight out bet on the flop probably would have induced instant folds.

I could see betting more on the turn.... maybe I should have done that.

Thanks ya'll

Originally Posted by TheMaverik91

I understand that I'd make more money betting all three streets.... but wouldn't it be worth letting the turn come out to maybe "push" someone to bet? Make them think no one has anything? Where as a straight out bet on the flop probably would have induced instant folds.

Generally if you don't have reads that a villain is capable of bluffing in this spot and/or is pretty aggressive, the best thing you can do is bet and hope someone got a piece of the board. If everyone folds, oh well, next hand.

I'd rather bet small like 18-20c than nothing at all, since you'll still be able to get it in at the river. Give people false reason to chase their straight draws and such, maybe they'll hit and stack off as well. We also don't want to give hands like 88-TT a free card and hit a miracle better fullhouse (they'll call at least a street, so make them pay).

People can play trips pretty passively(slowplay, weaker trips, dumb, etc), but they won't let them go easily. Get them to start getting money in the middle so you can stack them.

bet, bet, bet, bet, and then bet. So many of you guys complain about these fucken calling stations that can't fold a hand and suck out but then you hit a monster hand on the flop and slow down. These guys want to see the rest of the cards so unless you bet some stupid amount like 3x pot or 1BB then they wont be alerted. Just fucking bet. Stop waiting for calling stations to bet.

Some variation of bet bet raise bet raise raise bet bet raise raise bet raise raise raise raise bet bet raise bet raise go all-in.

Raise more pre flop.

Bet the flop, just from pre flop I can tell these players will call down with a wide range. The only time I would check this flop is against a maniac who will bet his entire range on multiple streets.

Stop worrying about "scaring" people away with your big hands - if they have complete air they will not pay off no matter how hard you try.

Big leak with new players - they overpay hands like TPGK but when they flop full houses it's time to slow play even though micro stakes is filled with fish who call 3 streets with 3rd pair.

Build big pots with big hands.

Ok so let me recap (and ask a few more questions)

Even thou I hit the monster, I should have bet, because if someone even had the potential of a draw, they would have called (just like they called on the turn). But that final six locked down the board, so there probably would have been no way to get more money (unless I did a 2BB bet or something small like that)

Now my question: I'm being told to raise more pre-flop.... why? I'm already raising 4xBB the only thing I'm not doing yet like most people do is add 1BB per limper (in this case the "appropriate" bet should have been .12 if I counted right.) Is that where your saying I should raise more... or are you saying I should just downright raise more overal?

Preflop is rarely a mistake to raise 4x, 5x or 10x. It's about what they will call with what hands. IF guys call 4x and fold to Cbets then try 5x. If you can get folds then raise higher preflop. If they are calling a ton and your QJs is not going to make you a ton of money then start raising 3x. Biggest issue with preflopis not betting because of your cards. Don't start raising 5x with AA and 3 x with 78s.

Post flop is another story. This may be a decent spot to slow down but we still need to get paid. If nobody has a hand then they aren't calling now or later. Guys will call with a ton of shit here, AQs and A rags. Smaller pairs may call one bet. The flop is the best place to get a ton of calls since there are still cards to come and hit their hands. That is why KJo will call three streets and suck out a J on the river so often. They don't fold.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Some variation of bet bet raise bet raise raise bet bet raise raise bet raise raise raise raise bet bet raise bet raise go all-in.

Originally Posted by HoopyDude

Raise more pre flop.

Bet the flop, just from pre flop I can tell these players will call down with a wide range. The only time I would check this flop is against a maniac who will bet his entire range on multiple streets.

Stop worrying about "scaring" people away with your big hands - if they have complete air they will not pay off no matter how hard you try.

Big leak with new players - they overpay hands like TPGK but when they flop full houses it's time to slow play even though micro stakes is filled with fish who call 3 streets with 3rd pair.

Build big pots with big hands.

this, like every single word

at bunhole stakes get used to the idea of betting for value. that means if you have bugger all dont bet (thats wrong -how else you going to win?) and if you have the nuts bet and bet at least 1/2+ pot.

the biggest weakness of villains at this stake is they call too much. Its sooo fkn simple i wonder why i forget. The wierd thing is that we feel the urge to outplay eejits and really there is no point, when they do it to themselves so much better than we can.

Ok here's another hand.

When the scare card came out to the river, I checked but planned to Raise any bet.... after all... someone could just be trying to "show" a flush. I wonder if maybe I should have pushed all in instead? or maybe shoved at the turn already. Thoughts? According to pokertracker replay, I held a constant 90-93% win chance.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($1.78)
BB ($1.70)
UTG ($1.90)
UTG+1 ($2.24)
MP1 ($2.14)
MP2 ($0.83)
Hero (CO) ($2.85)
Button ($3.37)

Preflop: Hero is CO with ,
4 folds, Hero bets $0.08, Button calls $0.08, 1 fold, BB calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.25) , , (3 players)
BB bets $0.14, Hero raises to $0.28, Button calls $0.28, BB calls $0.14

Turn: ($1.09) (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.20, Button raises to $0.40, BB calls $0.40, Hero calls $0.20

River: ($2.29) (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, Button checks

Total pot: $2.29 | Rake: $0.10

Results:
Button mucked K, A (one pair, Aces).
BB had A, Q (two pair, Aces and Queens).
Hero had 5, 5 (three of a kind, fives).
Outcome: Hero won $2.19

This second hand is a bit different. Consider what the turn pot size will be if you just call the flop (even if the button folds) and how easy it will be to get the money in. The idea is that if you just call the flop, you're getting the button to play a wider range of hands on average and getting more value out of the hand without giving anything up at all.

On the turn, I don't know what possessed you to make such a horrible bet size, or what possessed you to just call the minraise. When you make this bet, consider the implied odds you're giving anyone who has two spades and how much money will be behind on the river to get in.

As played on the river, it's still time to put the money in. Instead you miss value (a common theme for this thread and the hands in it).

Additionally, it should be noted that the % chance to win in PokerTracker's replayer is based off of your opponents having a random hand aka any two cards. It doesn't mean anything useful.

Ok, you've jumped my ass about bet sizing before..... and I never really understood what you ment until I re-reviewed the hand (after reading your post) What your saying I i should have done a bet more along the line of 40 cents, and when he mini raised, I should have shoved.... making it so that anyone with a draw would really have to pay to play...... thus i wouldn't have had to worry about the scare card on the river which caused me not to increase any value.....

Hopefully I understood that right... please correct me if I'm still retarded and missed the point.....

You're like right at the point but not quite there. Just consider this: what odds are you giving someone who has two spades on the turn with your bet?

You'll see that you're giving them the odds to play two spades very profitably, and that means you could have done better.

Well the odds of drawing your flush are 4:1.... so for proper pot odds, I would had to make their pot odds 3:1 or lower.... therefor unprofitable for them to continue (in case they miss)...

Maybe I hit the nail a little better that time?

Edit: Woot.... just had a hand happen..... maybe I can show that I learned (or think I learned) what your talking about:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (MP2) ($1.55)
MP3 ($2.98)
CO ($1.94)
Button ($4.87)
SB ($4.70)
BB ($5)
UTG ($3.73)
UTG+1 ($2.20)
MP1 ($4.06)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with ,
UTG calls $0.02, UTG+1 calls $0.02, MP1 bets $0.06, Hero raises to $0.10, MP3 calls $0.10, 1 fold, Button calls $0.10, SB calls $0.09, 1 fold, UTG calls $0.08, UTG+1 calls $0.08, MP1 calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.72) , , (7 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets $0.04, Hero raises to $1.45 (All-In), 1 fold, Button calls $1.45, 4 folds

Turn: ($3.66) (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($3.66) (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $3.66 | Rake: $0.15

Results:
Button had 10, 10 (one pair, tens).
Hero had 2, 2 (three of a kind, twos).
Outcome: Hero won $3.51

I reraised because my pocket 5's gives me great odds to hit a set on the flop. Flop shows a set but 2 spades..... so I want to make it unproffitable for a flush draw to continue.... so a shove makes the pot odds unfavorable for a flush draw. I happened to catch a pair of pocket tens from someone who thought they had the better hand... but I was already leading with my set (altough pocket 10's had 2 outs.. where I had roughly 7 outs on the flop (one 2, and 3 outs each for the other cards to pair up.) and 10 outs on the turn.

.....Right?

Hey OP I think you should bet . But seriously, ya I know it sucks when you bet with a monster and people fold. But the times you do make bigger pots and monies will more than make up for it.

terrible flops on all 3 hands just save yourself the trouble and open fold the flop. . .or you could check the flop and fold the turnbut personally i think that is too aggressive.

You are right about the pot odds thing. If you give them good odds to draw then they will profitably, etc, which means you lose value (money).

As for the last hand posted, I don't understand preflop. The flop is better than making some retardedly small bet like you've shown you tend to do in the past. =P

ok so the flop was better.... and what was wrong with the preflop now? Maybe should have just called instead of a raise?

Yeah there's no reason to be raising there. Calling is much better for a number of reasons. Long story short, you would like to be putting in a small amount preflop with a lot left behind so when you hit a set (which is the only good hand you'll usually hit with 22 on the flop) you'll have good implied odds with plenty of money left to go in relative to the amount you put in preflop. Does that help?

So put in raises preflop to discourage weak hands (or get fish to play weak hands for more money at least)... but only 3 bet a preflop with premium hands (AA,KK, AK come to mind) and if you do have the set, your going to make it up by putting the money in the flop anyways.... right?

Regarding hand 1...

If you had AK on that flop, would you cbet it? If you had QQ on that flop, would you cbet it? If you cbet those hands, would you expect your opponent to call you? If the answer is yes, then you should bet your boat, too.

On the river, there is a boat on the board, and you push on a "fake bluff." Ok, but realize that there is nothing in the pot, meaning your opponent has nothing invested to motivate him to call. he is in fact facing a lose-lose situation because in the best case, he wins half minus the rake. And in the worst case, he is up against quads, which in fact is what you are repping -- quad 6's.

So the only situation where the fake bluff will work is where you have built a good pot on prior streets and your opponent feels he has something to lose by not calling.

Hope that helps you think about your strategy...

ChezJ

You can't extract money from every hand.

Originally Posted by ChezJ

Regarding hand 1...

If you had AK on that flop, would you cbet it? If you had QQ on that flop, would you cbet it? If you cbet those hands, would you expect your opponent to call you? If the answer is yes, then you should bet your boat, too.

On the river, there is a boat on the board, and you push on a "fake bluff." Ok, but realize that there is nothing in the pot, meaning your opponent has nothing invested to motivate him to call. he is in fact facing a lose-lose situation because in the best case, he wins half minus the rake. And in the worst case, he is up against quads, which in fact is what you are repping -- quad 6's.

So the only situation where the fake bluff will work is where you have built a good pot on prior streets and your opponent feels he has something to lose by not calling.

Hope that helps you think about your strategy...

ChezJ

Originally Posted by jyms

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($65.30)
UTG ($36.22)
MP ($197.49)
Hero (CO) ($50.92)
Button ($46.87)
SB ($9)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9, Q
UTG calls $0.50, 1 fold, Hero bets $1.50, Button calls $1.50, 2 folds, UTG calls $1

Flop: ($5.25) Q, 8, Q (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $2.62, Button calls $2.62, 1 fold

Turn: ($10.49) 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks

River: ($10.49) 8 (2 players)
Hero bets $46.80 (All-In), Button calls $42.75 (All-In)

Total pot: $95.99

Results:
Button had J, 9 (full house, eights over Queens).
Hero had 9, Q (full house, Queens over eights).
Outcome: Hero won $97.04

There is always value in betting like ChezJ says, this guy called off $42 to win back his $4

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