How not to get value/why you shouldn't slowplay

I was involved in this hand earlier today, and I thought it would be useful to some players in showing why you need to size your bets properly and bet for value.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($11.35)
BB ($16.05)
Hero (UTG) ($10.70)
MP ($11.75)
Button ($15.55)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 8, 7
Hero bets $0.40, 1 fold, Button calls $0.40, 1 fold, BB calls $0.30

The table had been playing pretty weak-tight and I had been able to steal a lot, plus I don't mind raising 87s occasionally for balance/shania/etc. My raise isn't important.

Flop: ($1.25) 5, K, A (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, Button checks

Okay, 3 ways, I flop nothing, I'm just going to be c/f but the flop checks though.

Turn: ($1.25) 6 (3 players)
BB bets $0.30, Hero calls $0.30, Button calls $0.30

Sweet, I turned an OESD and I'm being offered 5:1 on a call. Definitely a profitable call.

River: ($2.15) 2 (3 players)
BB bets $0.80, Hero folds, Button calls $0.80

Oh well, didn't hit. I can fold, knowing I made a profitable play.

Total pot: $3.75 | Rake: $0.15

Results:
Button mucked J, K (one pair, Kings).
BB had K, A (two pair, Aces and Kings).
Outcome: BB won $3.60

BB flat called AK, which isn't totally bad, but I would rather 3bet. But then he flops top two in a raised pot and doesn't bet? Okay, so maybe he was going to check-raise and it checked through. But then he bets the smallest bet imaginable because he doesn't want to "scare people out".

Had I hit my straight, there is almost no doubt I would have stacked him and he would have run and cried about how I sucked out on his AK.

If you are on FTR, you should not be playing like this. However, you should be looking for players like this to play against.

Just felt I needed to share.

Things that make me raise

[ ] balance
[X] Shania Twain
[ ] etc

Very good post miec

Edited for clarification

I've read that damn shania post like a dozen times

And the re-representation of the idea of Shania is so over complicated it becomes abstract.

It tilts me something fierce

Also, good post miec.

Example #2

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP ($15.40)
CO ($8.05)
Hero (Button) ($15.35)
SB ($11.15)
BB ($9.70)
UTG ($10)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A, A
UTG (poster) checks, 1 fold, CO calls $0.10, Hero bets $0.60, 2 folds, UTG (poster) calls $0.50, 1 fold

Obviously I am raising it up here to 6BBs to isolate the limpers and hopefully take someone to value town.

Flop: ($1.45) 4, 5, 7 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $1, UTG raises $2, Hero calls $1

Eww flop. Either I am going to get no action, or someone has a strong draw, or I am nearly drawing dead. After betting, the poster min-raises me, which to me means total-air, he has a decent diamond that he is drawing to, or in a rare instance he flopped a flush and I am nearly drawing dead. However, I am getting about 4.5:1 on the call, so its really unlikely that I am going to fold.

Turn: ($5.45) A (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks

Well, a set of Aces. On a monotone turn. This kinda sucks. At this point, total-air is going to want to check it down, and he might have a tiny diamond to beat me. I'll take a free card and see if I fill up off of my 10 outs.

River: ($5.45) 4 (2 players)
UTG bets $3, Hero raises $8, UTG calls $4.40 (All-In)

Hooray, I filled up. Money goes in.

Total pot: $20.25

Results:
Hero had A, A (full house, Aces over fours).
UTG had 2, Q (flush, Ace high).
Outcome: Hero won $19.85

Yes, I hit runner runner to take down a flopped flush or in laymen's terms, I sucked out. Villain was steaming after this, called me all sorts of names. However, he could have easily raised me harder on the flop, and bet the turn to get value from a worse diamond.

As played, yes, I made a mistake on the flop by calling the min-raise. However, I still think it was a reasonable call given what the villain usually would be showing up with, and compared to the villains mistake of checking the turn and calling a shove, my mistake is small in comparison.

Suppose he had check-raised me to a better size, say $3 or $3.50, I would be getting much worse odds to call (around 2:1), and it would set up a less than PSB on the turn. Even with the set of Aces, I can't profitably call a PSB on the turn.

Overall, the point I am trying to make is that when you make correct bet sizing choices and value bet correctly, you set yourself up for easier decisions on later streets. Conversely, when you make incorrect choices, you make your later street decisions harder.

Originally Posted by Ragnar4

I've read that damn shania post like a dozen times

And the re-representation of the idea of Shania is so over complicated it becomes abstract.

Shania is a weird topic, mostly because its something so tough to actually figure out. Maybe Spoon could do some math calculations and figure out the Shania points against different opponents, but its way out of my league right now.

The only times that I think about it are when I have been at a table for a while, the other players have a decent idea of how I play, and I go mostly card dead for a few orbits, then pick up a big hand in EP. If I raise, its almost as if people are thinking "Oh snap, that mofo has a hand, he hasn't raised in 3 orbits! Snap fold!" instead of "I'm sick of this guy always raising. He is FOS! I'm gonna stack this mofo"

I think we should avoid Shania as a topic for right now though, because it is going to get a lot of the people that just need to play ABC poker all confused.

Originally Posted by mieczkowusc

Yes, I hit runner runner to take down a flopped flush or in laymen's terms, I sucked out. Villain was steaming after this, called me all sorts of names. However, he could have easily raised me harder on the flop, and bet the turn to get value from a worse diamond.

As played, yes, I made a mistake on the flop by calling the min-raise. However, I still think it was a reasonable call given what the villain usually would be showing up with, and compared to the villains mistake of checking the turn and calling a shove, my mistake is small in comparison.

Suppose he had check-raised me to a better size, say $3 or $3.50, I would be getting much worse odds to call (around 2:1), and it would set up a less than PSB on the turn. Even with the set of Aces, I can't profitably call a PSB on the turn.

Overall, the point I am trying to make is that when you make correct bet sizing choices and value bet correctly, you set yourself up for easier decisions on later streets. Conversely, when you make incorrect choices, you make your later street decisions harder.

Well, on that turn, he HAS to bet. And bet big. He has a flush. He knows you raised pre-flop so you might have pocket aces. An ace is on the board. You most likely have 10 outs. So you are calling 3-1 odds or better and are likely calling even with somewhat less than that because of implied odds.

If I can wax philosophical a moment here, I think a lot of mistakes on slowplay are caused by greed. You get a very good hand, you know the other guy might have a good hand and be willing to bet into you, and you want to stack him. Instead of thinking, I'm ahead, this guy may have outs to beat me, and I better make sure that he doesn't get a juicy price to call me down, even if it means that I risk inducing a fold and getting a lower payoff.

There is, of course, a time for greed in poker. But it isn't when your opponent has a 1 in 4 chance of sucking out on you.