How to dodge sets

The 4bet on the flop tells me Im normally way behind, so why do I usually feel commited here? What should I be doing differently?

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($22.20)
Hero (UTG) ($10)
UTG+1 ($13.75)
MP1 ($11.80)
MP2 ($7.95)
MP3 ($24.65)
CO ($12.05)
Button ($21.25)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, K
5 folds, Button calls $0.10, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.35, Button calls $0.25

Flop: ($0.75) A, 6, J (2 players)
Hero bets $0.60, Button raises to $1.20, Hero raises to $4.35, Button raises to $7.50, Hero raises to $9.65 (All-In), Button calls $2.15

Turn: ($20.05) J (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($20.05) 3 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $20.05 | Rake: $2

I just recently started playing 10nl so I am not that skilled yet, but what I do here when I am playing against a tight reg is 3 bet smaller then if he 4bets its easier to fold. If this hand is against a donk or an unkown I felt everytime if he has set or AJ. Im still learning so take my advice with caution.

Sorry, forgot to say dont know this opp at all.

i might be way off but i play this the same way i think villian could definatly have Ax i would guess AJ before a set . JJ i think would reraise preflop at this level. he could have a set of 6's but i think i get all my money in because i've seen this play with AQ lots. i have even seen it with a flush draw.

Originally Posted by OhBollocks

The 4bet on the flop tells me Im normally way behind, so why do I usually feel commited here?

...'cause by the time you've 3-bet him on the flop, you pretty much are...

Take this for the noobie 2cents it's worth... I spent more time than most at $10NL (over 225K hands...), and when it comes to TPTK type hands, I really think you're picking between two generally broad options -- play them hard, fast and for stacks or, unimproved, lean towards pot control and smaller pots. I say this as broad approach, recognizing all the it depends, opponent specific, board texture, reads, yadda yadda.

All that being said, and I'm prolly gonna get yelled at here, but I found naked TPTK to be a vulnerable hand at $10NL to play for stacks. So in my mind it was a choice...

1. Play 'em hard, fast and for stacks -- Advantage is taking money from fools stacking off w/ worse pairs and busted draws that don't improve by SD. Disadvantage is you will donk your stack into sets consistently, lose stacks to the "wish-a-flush" crowd, blah blah. This approach can be +EV, but higher volatility. Your hand here is a good example of this -- if I was vil I would have happily stacked off with a bunch of hands on this flop (66, JJ, AKs, AQs, AJ, Ax or Kx flush draw, Jx or 6x flush draw). Would play the line a bit different, but end result is the same.
2. Pot control unimproved -- Advantage is lower volatility and smaller losses. In this example, call the min-raise and re-evaluate on the Turn. Wouldn't save you from the boat in this case, but may make you think twice if a spade peels off or a Q etc. You have some room to move (and improve...) before committing. Disadvantage is you leave money on the table by giving up on TPTK hands where you really were ahead. This can also be +EV with less volatility.

Which is technically better long-term? F-k if I know... I think if you're okay with the way hands like this turn out, and are consistently aggressive w/ TPTK, your okay long-term at $10 but roll with the volatility. You don't like the volatility? Try considering TPTK as a "small pot" hand unimproved, and play it accordingly. Then this kinda sh!t is less bothersome...

Dunno if that helps, but my 2 cents nonetheless...

Against an unknown, I'm folding TPTK to a 3-bet on the flop when stacks are deep. Call me a nit. Everything else is circumstantial.

you got MINRAISED on the flop
that's a "hi, I have the nuts, what do you have" bet

He limps at the button then call your raise, that's either a nit (badly) playing a small pocket pair or more likely a loose passive preflop player who can have a lot of trash here esp. worse aces. It's bad you don't have reads from players next to you because you will play lots of hands against them.

Here with the weird limp/call from BU, the possible flush draws and the fact that JJ might have raised pre plus your "only" 100BB stack lean towards stacking off in my opinion.

Sarbox explained pretty well that trying to play a small pot is not a bad option too, but get read to plan the hand preflop!

i've been felting here a lot becuase FD is part of their range and there are so many idiots at this level who cant even break even yet infect everywhere as if they know everything.

I think your committed once you reraise him as Sarbox says. There is no easy folding beyond this. Once you have raised to $4 if they shove you have 6 to call 14 and you only have to win 30% of the time to call. (thx Ragnar for making me think of this). Given flush draws, AQ and randomn 10c wierd stuff I cant fold this and got shown 66 the other day without a set.

The fact they have a huge stack and not a semi short stack might need consideration before raising back I spose. You will be out of position for the rest of the hand means if you just call you will end up check calling or check folding for the rest of the hand which feels horrible.

I'm feeling hugely uncomfortable with the minraises, but I play this the same way. You need a read that sais he doesn't 3-bet lightly to not stack off here IMO.

- There's the problem I have with most beginner forum posts - nobody posts any reads! After half an hour I have a player note for almost everyone at the table, even if it's just very basic stuff like "didn't play a hand for at least 3 orbits"

I typically call the first min-raise and play poker on the turn/river.

Also, if you're not willing to felt the hand do not 3bet the flop, you flat out have enough equity vs his stack-off range after you take your pot odds into consideration that 3bet/folding is definitely an incorrect play.

Something is fishy with the Handhistory. It says you are UTG, but you act after the button, so idk. But anyways, raise bigger preflop. You 3.5xed it with a limper. Should be at least 4.5x or better 5x imo. And on the flop I don't think you should b/3b. By 3betting, yes you are taking away the chance he hits a flush draw, but you are driving away all worse hands. Instead, I think you should b/c the flop here, then re-evaluate the turn.

Thanks everyone

Originally Posted by Mezza Morta

Against an unknown, I'm folding TPTK to a 3-bet on the flop when stacks are deep. Call me a nit. Everything else is circumstantial.

Were not deep here. When I 3bet here, there was more in the pot then my stack.

Originally Posted by sarbox68

...'cause by the time you've 3-bet him on the flop, you pretty much are...

Take this for the noobie 2cents it's worth... I spent more time than most at $10NL (over 225K hands...), and when it comes to TPTK type hands, I really think you're picking between two generally broad options -- play them hard, fast and for stacks or, unimproved, lean towards pot control and smaller pots. I say this as broad approach, recognizing all the it depends, opponent specific, board texture, reads, yadda yadda.

All that being said, and I'm prolly gonna get yelled at here, but I found naked TPTK to be a vulnerable hand at $10NL to play for stacks. So in my mind it was a choice...

1. Play 'em hard, fast and for stacks -- Advantage is taking money from fools stacking off w/ worse pairs and busted draws that don't improve by SD. Disadvantage is you will donk your stack into sets consistently, lose stacks to the "wish-a-flush" crowd, blah blah. This approach can be +EV, but higher volatility. Your hand here is a good example of this -- if I was vil I would have happily stacked off with a bunch of hands on this flop (66, JJ, AKs, AQs, AJ, Ax or Kx flush draw, Jx or 6x flush draw). Would play the line a bit different, but end result is the same.
2. Pot control unimproved -- Advantage is lower volatility and smaller losses. In this example, call the min-raise and re-evaluate on the Turn. Wouldn't save you from the boat in this case, but may make you think twice if a spade peels off or a Q etc. You have some room to move (and improve...) before committing. Disadvantage is you leave money on the table by giving up on TPTK hands where you really were ahead. This can also be +EV with less volatility.

Which is technically better long-term? F-k if I know... I think if you're okay with the way hands like this turn out, and are consistently aggressive w/ TPTK, your okay long-term at $10 but roll with the volatility. You don't like the volatility? Try considering TPTK as a "small pot" hand unimproved, and play it accordingly. Then this kinda sh!t is less bothersome...

It does help, a lot.
I like to play hard and fast a lot of the time and the variance doesnt bother me as Im properly rolled (54 bi atm, after a 6bi downswing). Im an option A guy I suppose. I think one of the attractions for me is that I know Im not a good post flop player so while im still working on pf game its nice to have most of my decisions made by the flop.

I guess playing it hard and fast with 100bb, you just cant avoid the sets. Amirite in thinking you need to slow it down with TPTK as you move up?

Originally Posted by iopq

you got MINRAISED on the flop
that's a "hi, I have the nuts, what do you have" bet

Do you forget how $10NL plays?
Hand 2 here http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ns-t76129.html

Thanks 4 all the replies,
Plenty to chew on

Well, to be fair the $4 raise doesn't look like a minraise to a donk in a 3b pot

In this hand I was observing and I literally called "two pair or set" and thought "he's going to raise to 2.70"
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($3.50)
BB ($23.40)
UTG ($18.45)
UTG+1 ($10)
MP1 ($17.25)
MP2 ($15.10)
MP3 ($10)
Hero (CO) ($10)
Button ($19.35)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 6, 2
UTG calls $0.10, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.10, MP3 calls $0.10, Hero checks, 2 folds, BB checks

Flop: ($0.55) 7, 2, A (5 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $0.10, 1 fold, MP3 raises to $0.40, Hero folds, 1 fold, UTG raises to $0.70, MP3 calls $0.30

Turn: ($1.95) 8 (2 players)
UTG bets $0.10, MP3 raises to $1.40, UTG raises to $2.70, MP3 calls $1.30

River: ($7.35) 4 (2 players)
UTG checks, MP3 bets $6.50 (All-In), UTG calls $6.50

Total pot: $20.35 | Rake: $2

Originally Posted by OhBollocks

I think one of the attractions for me is that I know Im not a good post flop player so while im still working on pf game its nice to have most of my decisions made by the flop.

Thought about playing with 60-70bb stack? Makes commitment decisions easier and (my experience at least...) has been that it irons out some of the post-flop wrinkles while still leaving you deep enough to not just be playing binary short-stack poker. You still need to plan your hand and use some good, basic post-flop skills, but takes some of heavy lifting out of the toughest streets. Just a thought....

Originally Posted by OhBollocks

I guess playing it hard and fast with 100bb, you just cant avoid the sets. Amirite in thinking you need to slow it down with TPTK as you move up?

My only experience has been my first 50K hands at $25 (running +3.5bb/100 so far FWIW...) It's not night and day difference, but you do see better post-flop play, people less willing to stack off with worse hands and people who are able to put you to more difficult decisions. Other than that, a lot of the same.

Originally Posted by sarbox68

Originally Posted by OhBollocks

I think one of the attractions for me is that I know Im not a good post flop player so while im still working on pf game its nice to have most of my decisions made by the flop.

Thought about playing with 60-70bb stack? Makes commitment decisions easier and (my experience at least...) has been that it irons out some of the post-flop wrinkles while still leaving you deep enough to not just be playing binary short-stack poker. You still need to plan your hand and use some good, basic post-flop skills, but takes some of heavy lifting out of the toughest streets. Just a thought....

Originally Posted by OhBollocks

I guess playing it hard and fast with 100bb, you just cant avoid the sets. Amirite in thinking you need to slow it down with TPTK as you move up?

My only experience has been my first 50K hands at $25 (running +3.5bb/100 so far FWIW...) It's not night and day difference, but you do see better post-flop play, people less willing to stack off with worse hands and people who are able to put you to more difficult decisions. Other than that, a lot of the same.

Naw, I'll stick to 100bb. My post flop game is not good in a long term sense. Its good enough to beat $10NL for 8BB/100 over 25k hands though. I just think I should have pf totally nailed before I hit BR for $25NL if I can.

I normally dodge to the left, but sometimes I like to balance my play and dodge to the right. I also try to duck occassionally, -EV in isolation but its good for metagame.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

I normally dodge to the left, but sometimes I like to balance my play and dodge to the right. I also try to duck occassionally, -EV in isolation but its good for metagame.

If you can dodge traffic, you can dodge sets