How do you modify your strategy if you can't bluff?

Okay, so my buddies and I gather round a table every Tuesday and play a game of Texas Hold'em poker. Each person puts in $5.oo, and blinds are 5 cents and 10 cents.

It's limited betting: the max you can bet is 50 cents.

My friends, like me, are novice players, but unlike me are not conservative players; nine times out of ten, even if you put in an unreasonable amount of money to bluff, they will almost always call "just to see what you have."

They also are all wild betters and will bet even if they have nothing. Since they always do this you can never tell if they have something or not.

What do you do in this case? Do you really only play if you have something? That works well to keep you from losing all your money, but it also won't win you much, and it means nine times out of ten you will fold.

Any advice?

um, just play when you have a monster and fold when you don't.

you can't bluff people who will call you like this. your only hope is to semi-bluff your strong draws and power-bet your made hands.

don't even semi-bluff your draws
VALUE bet them

[quate]What do you do in this case? Do you really only play if you have something? That works well to keep you from losing all your money, but it also won't win you much, and it means nine times out of ten you will fold. [/quate]

yep - you only play of you have a hand.
It will win you nice money, if you really play tight.

Regarding the number of flops to see - that really depends on the number of players in the table. Seeing only 10% of the flops is a bit on the tight side. I think on average you should see about 1.5 hands per orbit.

One more thing - this seems like a very easily beatable game - but you must play tight and have patience - it is as simple as that

in games where people will call with anything

1) tighten up bluffs - i.e. dont do them

2) loosen up on legitimate hands - i.e. if you think someone will be making huge bets with any pair then be MUCH more likely to call with only bottom 2 pair.
If you think someone will call with anything then any hand that can beat a pair. If you think they will call with nothing then bet high pairs.
you dont need to know if they have anything as long as you dont go all in when you have a good (but not great) hand like top pair.

e.g. If you make bets and are called all the way to the river and then they turn over their cards, the only thing that matters is that up to the point when they turn over their cards there is more than a 50% chance that you have the winning hand.
If they call enough with losing hands then it doesnt matter if they occasionally call with winning hands and you lose.
You will WIN in the long run.
I think the most important thing to remember for this type of game is to not assume that they do not have a monster just because they are worse players than you. Dont go for crazy all-ins unless you are almost certain you have the best hand. Play very tight and when you do get good hand (e.g. Trips on an unsuited, unconnected flop, Ace-high flush, nut straight etc) then bet ALOT and be called by top pair etc

Pelion - The post refers to limit game
[quate]It's limited betting: the max you can bet is 50 cents.
[/quate]
In this kind of game pot odds are king

e.g. If you make bets and are called all the way to the river and then they turn over their cards, the only thing that matters is that up to the point when they turn over their cards there is more than a 50% chance that you have the winning hand.

So what starting cards would you recommend seeing the flop on?

i.e., should I bet any two suited cards, or only high suited cards? Should I bet everytime I have an Ace? Or should I only bet on pocket pairs, suited high cards or sequential face cards?

If you don't want to list them, maybe you could tell me in terms of the preflop 'groups' that the guys on this site have modified from the sklansky formula; i.e., should I only bet if I have cards in group 0-2 or should I also go in on groups 2-4?

Thanks for bothering to respond, BTW.

1.dont bluff
2. bet when you have a hand because they will call

I play a home game like this and I've been killing it every week. Don' t get caught up in their bullshit. They've probably been watching too much WSOP. Play tight and take advantage of their charitable betting. If you don't believe me, consider that last Saturday I made $60, and two weeks before that I made almost $100. The best thing is, these guys haven't caught on yet, and they think I'm the one who sucks!!! Ain't life grand.

So what starting cards would you recommend seeing the flop on?

This is highly dependant on the number of people seeing the flop and on preflop agression.

Assuming 8-10 handed, with at least 4-5 seeing the flop I would:

Raise AA, KK, AK, AQ, QQ
Limp: PP, suited connectors 78+.
As long as there are 4-5 people seeing the flop you are fine calling raises with those hands.

AJ,KQ is ok to limp with if you can see the flop for cheap.

JJ, TT are dangerous hands to play agressively with since with multiple players seeing the flop any overcard is very dangerous, so play them for set value.

Originally Posted by TLR

So what starting cards would you recommend seeing the flop on?

This is highly dependant on the number of people seeing the flop and on preflop agression.

Assuming 8-10 handed, with at least 4-5 seeing the flop I would:

Raise AA, KK, AK, AQ, QQ
Limp: PP, suited connectors 78+.
As long as there are 4-5 people seeing the flop you are fine calling raises with those hands.

AJ,KQ is ok to limp with if you can see the flop for cheap.

JJ, TT are dangerous hands to play agressively with since with multiple players seeing the flop any overcard is very dangerous, so play them for set value.

Yes this is a good all around guidline for playing these guys

Thanks--I think the toughest part about it is patience. You're often tempted to go in because the others around you who aren't folding are getting richer and richer (but I guess there are always those going bankrupt, too). You start thinking eventually "I could be like them if I only went in more."

But I guess you're right...if I play really conservative, over time I'll consistently make money, which is the most important thing, I guess.

Actually, for now my goal isn't to win but to stay afloat. I ended up going out three games in a row (making a net -$15) and have been in the red ever since. I've had a few modest successes since then and am current $7.40 in the hole, so a good game where I make modest gains could help me reach my goal of getting my head a notch above water.

I always tell myself that one day I'll catch a break and come up big, but for some reason it happens to everyone but me . Hopefully that'll change after I take these new strategies to heart.

BTW, I play with six people and we play for three hours (sometimes longer, but that's rare). Does that change anything?

I play in a low steaks cash game like this with some people i know, used to play NL but switched to limit triple draw low ball 2-7 just for a laught but the strategy that works best for these fisher games is to take advantage of the small bet size. Implied odds can get huge as long as you can let go of that bad draw on 4th street if you don't hit.

say you have a draw and need 3:1 but are only getting 4:1, in alot of cases i'm going to see the turn at a bad price when i make (drawing to a nut hand of course) cus the implied odds of them calling raises and reraises in big bets more then makes up for it. Happy fishing =)

Originally Posted by urobolus

Thanks--I think the toughest part about it is patience. You're often tempted to go in because the others around you who aren't folding are getting richer and richer (but I guess there are always those going bankrupt, too). You start thinking eventually "I could be like them if I only went in more."

Yes, being patient is tough to instil, but you need this self-discipline if you are going to succeed. You have to dimiss what is going on around you because, I'm also willing to bet from what you've said, that whilst these players are "getting rich", the fluctuations they have are immense.

Originally Posted by urobolus

But I guess you're right...if I play really conservative, over time I'll consistently make money, which is the most important thing, I guess.

It is not so much about playing "really conservatively" per se, it is more about being selective with your starting hands but really playing them hard when you get them and maximising the money you make on them. You can then start to throw in a few unusual/drawing type hands into the mix at the right time.

Originally Posted by urobolus

BTW, I play with six people. Does that change anything?

You could check out this .....
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...166b4251b3dea9

and, in particular, this .....
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=18187

However, I would take on board what TLR has pointed out re: starting hands. This is purely some supplemental reading about shorter games.

Could someone help me out with the terminology in that post?

"30/7ish villain opens in MP for 3-4BB. you defend your CO/button with XX (SC, PP, SA etc.)"

What's MP? Or BB? what does 3-4BB mean? CO/button? Also what's SA mean? I know SC is suited connectors and PP is pocket pairs but...

Thanks for the advice; gawd, I'm such a noob

MP = Middle position
BB = Big blind
CO = Cut off - one position before the button
SA = beats me - maybe suited Ace.

Check the what the hell does random FTR something or other mean sticky in the begginer circle

Well, so far I've been playing better poker, but I haven't been making any money. Last night I won three hands, all with modest pots, and lost big money when I snagged a King-high full house and lost to an Ace-high full house, putting me down to $1.50 after starting $5.00. I didn't get any winning hands after that.

But I will persevere, and one day, ONE day maybe all this strategy will pay off...

Originally Posted by urobolus

Well, so far I've been playing better poker, but I haven't been making any money. Last night I won three hands, all with modest pots, and lost big money when I snagged a King-high full house and lost to an Ace-high full house, putting me down to $1.50 after starting $5.00. I didn't get any winning hands after that.

But I will persevere, and one day, ONE day maybe all this strategy will pay off...

Thats poker for you. Keep playing solid and disciplined and you'll win in the long run.

Everyone else may be "getting rich", but I bet that person changes every night. In truth, they're probably just trading money back and forth.

If you manage to come away each time with even just 1 cent more than you started with, you're probably the only one really beating the game, and having a little fun while you're at it. Keep playing solid tight poker and they'll all slowly drop cash in your pocket without realizing it. Also, you will only occasionally clean up at the table with tight play, so no one will become scared of playing with you. Instead, they'll all look to shy away from whoever the last "big winner" was while you slowly build your winnings.

Interesting...

Well, I'm officially putting to bed the theory I had that I was cursed and simply could not win (I had made, in 15 straight games of poker, $3.50, and lost a whole lot more); I had a really big night last Tuesday.

This is how it went down; I played REALLY tight. I mean, it's actually really hard...you just love the way that Ace looks and you think to yourself "yeah, the other card is pretty low and off-suited, but...it's an ACE!" But you fold and 90% of the time you don't regret it.

Even more so are the situations where you have a made hand, but you fold it because the odds are wrong; that was the hardest. For example, there was one hand where I was in late position and had a lot of opponents in the pot so I bet on a 78s (I read Lee Jones' book "Winning Low Limit Hold'em" and took his advice that this was an okay bet in terms of pot odds). The flop was a rainbow 9, 10, 4 and there was only one slight raise (and slim chances for a flush by the time the river came around) so I called (Jones said I should have raised in that position, but I was feeling stingy and extra cautious).

The turn was a J. six out of my 9 opponents (there's usually less, but we had a bigger roundtable this time) fold, but the three left start to bet on full tilt; the price gets so high that my stack would be empty if I lost, and so I fold my straight, considering that there is too big of a possibility of a Q high straight or K high straight--plus, one of these guys is the "lesser" calling station on the table. I was right--there was a Q high and a K high. Now THAT was a tough fold...I can hardly believe I did it. I was actually more proud of that fold than anything else, which is kind of weird.

I made all my money on three hands--two small wins and one where I had bled my opponent for all he was worth using Jones' and your guys' strategy (plus a full house). I folded about 75% of the time though, whenever I didn't have something strong enough.

But one itching question: is making a huge pile a good sign or a bad sign? I know it feels good to make it, but is a really big pile a sign of a consistent poker player? I've been sticking to my tight-aggressive strategy that Jones and you guys recommended, and I FEEL like I'm playing smarter poker (that book is SUCH a good guide) but...well, what do you think?

Originally Posted by urobolus

But one itching question: is making a huge pile a good sign or a bad sign? I know it feels good to make it, but is a really big pile a sign of a consistent poker player? I've been sticking to my tight-aggressive strategy that Jones and you guys recommended, and I FEEL like I'm playing smarter poker (that book is SUCH a good guide) but...well, what do you think?

A huge pile says nothing good or bad. HOW you got that pile is what matters. Let's say the entire night you ended up getting called post-flop by flush draws. Odds say you'll lose 1 for every 2 you win. But if you have a lucky night, you could win 10 of those in a row and have taken down your entire table.

OR

You may have been limping in with any two cards and catching monster flops the entire time, busting out players left and right no matter what two cards they had. At the time, and probably shortly thereafter, this seems like a great way to play. In the long term though, you're losing money.

For example, let's say there are two identical copies of yourself that play for a year straight. Statistically, they'll both end up in the same spot, but how they got there may be totally different. One may have been busting out or tripling up almost every night, while the other just made slow consistent wins the entire time. You can't change the numbers that get rolled against you, all you can hope to do is get as many on your side as possible before they're rolled.

First of all - congratulations.

One night is a pretty small sample size, but the important stuff is the way you describe your play - it seems that you play a lot tighter, and in the type of table you are playing it seems like the correct style. You are on the right track - just keep following it.

You will not end up with a big pile every night, but if you play tight agressive poker you will finish most nights with a positive value - it will be much less then the random maniac with the hot streak of the night, but it will be consistent.

Based on your posts I will give you the following advice:
1. Continue to play tight agressive, very ABC poker, little to no bluffing - just winning with your good hands and avoiding classical 2nd best hand scenarios.
2. Unless the guys you play with are total morons sooner or later (probably after 6-8 weeks) they will figure out that you are beating them with ABC poker and you will see them folding more and more when you are in the hand. At this stage (but not before) - it will be time to shift your game a bit - when you see this happening consistently return to the forum and you will recieve advice for the 'next' stage.

And BTW - out of the hands I am most proud off - most of them are folds - be proud of folds based on good reads.

You could practice a little in penny room of poker sites. This really won't cost you much(0.02/0.04) and once you beat them constantly, your friends should be a lot easier to beat.

People on these penny rooms play pretty much like your friends.
Against these guys:

#1 Be very tight pre flop, 20% hand. Don't call raises from BB/SB with trash. (i won't list the hands to play since someone else already done that very well).

#2 The 20% of the time, go ahead and raise it. Don't slowplay these guys.

#3 Don't bluff them of course....however what is exactly your definition of bluffing? continuation betting and trying to push someone off a hand is different. Even against fish, continuation is fine to me. However YOU CAN'T PUSH A FISH OFF HANDS.

#4 Are these guys readable or they simply randomely bet? you could try to read about tells, and learn their betting patterns.