How to deal with loose $2NL short stacks?

How do you deal with someone who could go all-in at the drop of a pin? I have trouble reading them. I don't know if they're just saying "screw it, let's bluff like mad" or if they actually have something.

Like in a hand I was recently in....here's the context: I had been having continual success raising preflop then winning with a cbet. This hand I was UTG with AKs clubs, raised 4x BB, short stack (0.80$) called from the SB. Flop came 8 7 J all diamonds. He checked, I bet 2/3 the pot, and he re-raised all-in.

For a second, I considered calling because I wondered if he had picked up on my habits and that's the only reason he went all-in, maybe thinking I was bluffing my cbets every time. I hadn't been at the table very long but I already knew he was a loose player because he had went all-in twice already in the short time I had been there (no calls).

I folded because I figured he might of had a small pair or at least a diamond, while I had nothing but overcards. Should I not have cbet in that context to begin with?

How do you deal with these players who give the impression that they have no respect for their chips? Just avoid them until your sure you have the best of it or what? I mean, I sometimes fold decent hands/position and cringe even when I have like AKs and I see I'm up against them just because I feel like I'm gonna get bluffed and I'm not gonna make much off them to begin with.

Argh....

Aggro shorties are actually some of the easiest villains to take money from at 2nl, at least in my experience. Alright, to answer your questions; c-betting these guys when you miss is generally bad because of their tendency to push, especially c-betting this flop, in all honesty by c-betting this flop you have turned your hand into a complete bluff. What is the absolute best you can hope for on the turn and river? T, Q, even then you are still behind a flush. By c-betting here we lose any value we may get on a river A or K, all we are hoping for is to fold out the other guy, if this is our intent, why are we waiting for AK type hands to do it? 2nd reason not to c-bet, you don't even know what you are doing when you are raised. You should know the answer to what you are going to do in the event the villain calls or raises, your ranges should be formed based on these possibilities even before you bet, this stops us from making stupid decisions because omg, he raised me. Whether or not to call his shove; simple answer really, you bluffed, you got caught, now fold. Sure you have AcKc, a great hand pre-flop, but a not a great hand on that flop, you bluffed.
How to deal with them in general, if you have position on them, I add TT, JJ and AQo, AQs to my 3-bet range and am not afraid to stack off against them with those hands, they are generally stacking off with 77+ ATo+, fold anything smaller than TT to their pfr's cause you don't have set odds. If they have position on you, go to a different table.

Thanks

Hey Daeyeth, I was playing at a few tables with you today on PS. Recognize the avatar.

Anyhow, here are my thoughts from a fellow $2NL grinder:

First, the guys that push all in preflop:

These guys are all over the place, but this is one of the problems I've found Poker Copilot most helpful with, and they fall into two basic categories: the guys who fold fold fold everything but some top range, in which case they push; and the guys who will push with anything decent. Being able to tell them apart is obviously key when you are holding anything that's not AA or KK.

The premium pushers tend to play short stacked, $2 max, and their stats will be pretty tight, but take a look at their PFR, their WtS and their WaS stats. If the first is low and the second two are high, you've got your man. When a guy at your table has been quiet, and then shoves, I'll lay down pretty much anything but AA and KK. Why risk $2 on AQo when you can just outplay people?

The other guys are pretty easy to spot too, because you're probably going to notice them pushing a few times over not that many hands. So either they're getting lucky and being dealt AA five times in 20 mins, or their shove range is pretty wide. With these types I'm still pretty cautious — maybe more cautious than I should be — about pushing back. I'll take a look at their stats too. The PFR is going to be higher, the WtS high, but the WaS low. But these guys are gamblers, and could have any amount in front of them, so it's the same question of, if you don't have AA or KK, whether you want to risk $2-$5 on a possible coinflip when there is so much easy money to be made at this level post flop.

Here is a hand from today to illustrate these types (Yes, I play badly):

(I need to post twice, as this is my 10th post and I can't post links yet, and hand histories have links)

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($1.35)
Villain ($3.09)
MP2 ($3.57)
Hero (CO) ($3)
Button ($0.73)
SB ($0.63)
BB ($1.94)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A, Q
UTG calls $0.02, Villain bets $0.04, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.16, Button calls $0.16, SB calls $0.15, 2 folds, Villain raises to $3.09 (All-In), 1 fold, Button calls $0.57 (All-In), 1 fold

Flop: ($1.82) 2, 2, Q (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: ($1.82) 10 (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($1.82) 4 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $1.82 | Rake: $0.05

Results:
Button had 7, 7 (two pair, sevens and twos).
Villain had A, J (one pair, twos).
Outcome: Button won $1.77

Like, WTF, right? He min-raises after a limper, I raise to .16, get called by two guys, so he pushes with three to act after. I couldn't muck fast enough ... and the guy shows AJo. Dudes like this are insane, and I'd rather just get out of the way unless I have one of the big pairs. Next time i run into this guy, I might loosen up my all-=in callign range though.

So, in summation, the first types of dudes it's best to just avoid. Hope they get called by a donk, get cracked by the donk, and then you can stack the donk, get both their money, and have a smoke and a pankcake.

The second types it's more of a grey area. If you run into them over and over again, you can decide, like Mr. Button did in the hand above, whether your 77 is going to be good. Still though, for me, I generally prefer the donk crack/donk stack/smoke & a half stack approach to both types. Make your money post flop.

Now, for the dudes that push all in post flop, either on the river or turn.

My personal, anecdotal experience leads me to believe that the vast majority of these guys are pushing with nothing, or almost nothing, and trying to take down the pot.

For your situation described above, I'm going to guess Ad X, but even that is giving villain a lot of credit. The whole point about these guys is they could have anything. Like the guys that push preflop, it's good to just fold unless you have the nuts or near nuts until you have played with them enough to have a decent read and some stats.

Here are some gems from this afternoon alone:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP3 ($0.94)
CO ($0.97)
Button ($5)
Hero (SB) ($3.03)
BB ($2.98)
UTG ($1.08)
UTG+1 ($1.84)
villain (MP1) ($3.78)
MP2 ($1.76)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K, A
2 folds, villain bets $0.08, MP2 calls $0.08, 3 folds, Hero raises to $0.24, 1 fold, villain calls $0.16, MP2 calls $0.16

Flop: ($0.74) J, 2, 8 (3 players)
Hero checks, villain bets $0.36, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.92, villain calls $0.56

Turn: ($2.58) 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, villain bets $2.62 (All-In), Hero calls $1.87 (All-In)

River: ($6.32) 3 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $6.32 | Rake: $0.30

Results:
Hero had K, A (high card, Ace).
villain had 4, 4 (one pair, fours).
Outcome: villain won $6.02

That one I lost. One of my leaks is calling dudes because I know they have nothing, then their nothing is better than my nothing. I mean, look at this guy! Pushing after that charade! I chased him around to a few other tables because I was pissed and wanted my money back, but never got another chance. So I'm glad I can at least turn it into a teachable moment. But, needless to say, next time I run into this guy, I'm fairly confident that I will take all of his money.

Here's a few from another guy. This hand is the set-up:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG+1 ($1)
villain (MP1) ($5.59)
MP2 ($1.37)
MP3 ($4.80)
CO ($2.51)
Button ($0.97)
Hero (SB) ($3.16)
BB ($4.98)
UTG ($0.97)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A, 9
2 folds, villain bets $0.08, 2 folds, CO calls $0.08, Button calls $0.08, Hero calls $0.07, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.34) 2, 5, 9 (4 players)
Hero bets $0.24, villain raises to $1, 2 folds, Hero raises to $3.08 (All-In), villain calls $2.08

Turn: ($6.50) J (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($6.50) 5 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $6.50 | Rake: $0.30

Results:
Hero had A, 9 (two pair, nines and fives).
villain had 7, 2 (two pair, fives and twos).
Outcome: Hero won $6.20

Then, after stacking him on another call, he rebought. Then he tried to pull this:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($1)
villain (SB) ($3.54)
BB ($1.38)
UTG ($2.98)
UTG+1 ($2.35)
Hero (MP1) ($8.16)
MP2 ($4.80)
CO ($0.97)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 10, 10
2 folds, Hero bets $0.10, 3 folds, villain raises to $0.40, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.30

Flop: ($0.82) 9, 6, 4 (2 players)
villain bets $0.40, Hero raises to $1.20, villain calls $0.80

Turn: ($3.22) 6 (2 players)
villain bets $1.94 (All-In), Hero calls $1.94

River: ($7.10) 2 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $7.10 | Rake: $0.30

Results:
villain had K, 7 (one pair, sixes).
Hero had 10, 10 (two pair, tens and sixes).
Outcome: Hero won $6.80

After that hand I told him to send me his bank account number, because it would be faster. He left the table. But I wouldn't have taken $8 of his money in 10 minutes were it not for poker co-pilot telling me his aggression was though the roof. He was 16/15 through 19 hands, with 85% agg, so I didn't even need to worry about sampling error before feeling confident in calling his push.

In summary on these guys, do your homework, look at the stats, then call their bluffs, take their money, then talk shit.

Finally, the guys who push on the river. These guys are also often bluffing, as your average $2NL player will slow play or micro bet a draw or a made hand, then when they get to the river, they'll think "Oh boy. If I push, he'll probably know I have a hand and fold. So I'm gonna think about it for 3-5 seconds, then just bet out 90% of my stack. That'll fool 'em!" But sometimes they're not. If you've played the hand to the river, hopefully the decision to call will be much easier.

One thing to add to this are the scenarios which occur when the pot has, say .20 in it on the river, and villain opens by pushing $2. Umm, since the pot is so small, you hopefully don't have much and this is an easy laydown. If you do have something good, it is sweet mana from heaven.

Like with all the other pushing villains, stats are your friend. Make your reads and play smart.

I'm still pretty new, so I can't talk about EV and equity and implied odds with any cogency just yet, but I hope this helps.

See you on the tables.

Originally Posted by Gafferland

After that hand I told him to send me his bank account number, because it would be faster. He left the table.

Ego-stroking > profit?

Are the two mutually exclusive? I very, very rarely talk shit in this fashion, but for a player as aggressive as this guy, I felt a little salt in the wound might make him go on tilt. After the first hand mentioned above I said something, then two hands later I stacked him. Then he rebought and lost it all to me again in two hands. Even if I had rubbed his feet with liniments and baked him a pie, I don't think he would have stuck around much longer. But maybe so, so point taken.

I know you're not allowed to have an ego at FTR until at least $25NL, and am aware of the unwritten rule of not telling a villain why they are so villainous.

How to beat 2NL: Make a hand, then sell it.

AdKs : 3bet pre fine but WTF with the check raise ?. either cbet it or check fold i think. Villain called your 3 bet and is now betting the flop , You have to give him credit for at least having a hand worth continuing. What are you hoping for an A or K ? even then you could still be behind .On the turn ? stacking off with Air is stupid , he's raised and called a 3bet pre ,bet the flop and shoved the turn and you have air how often are you good here??
You say that he was bad , he could just as easily be saying how bad you played it you 3 bet pre and then check called down , he could quite easily have thought you were FOS pre and we don't know how much he'd seen you play and what you'd showed down. After seeing you play this hand every one else should have a note on you saying that you stack of with air with a big ace that misses. If he already had that read on you it can explain his play.

A9 : nice hand.

TT: 16/15 doesn't exactly appear bad stats and not sure that you are interpreting them correctly : A normal 16/15 taking that line you'd have to consider overpairs, flush draws sets to be in his range.

Finally, the guys who push on the river. These guys are also often bluffing, as your average $2NL player will slow play or micro bet a draw or a made hand, then when they get to the river, they'll think "Oh boy. If I push, he'll probably know I have a hand and fold. So I'm gonna think about it for 3-5 seconds, then just bet out 90% of my stack. That'll fool 'em!" But sometimes they're not. If you've played the hand to the river, hopefully the decision to call will be much easier.

This is incredibly bad advice. You should be putting your opponent on a range of hands each street and taking notes. Calling a shove with no consideration of how your hand fares against his range is incredibly bad for your winrate.Theres no need to bluff at 2NL because people will call a shove with bottom pair. And if you have the nuts make sure your stack is in by the showdown and you will be amazed at what people will show you because they THOUGHT you were bluffing. As you move up if you are calling shoves on the river without a good read that he bluffs a lot or think that your hand is ahead of his range you are spewing money away.
What is even worse at 2NL is that when people succesfully bluff you off a pot they will often show you what they had. Whilst its handy to have a note that they bluff with air be wary that they aren't setting you up for the shove with the nuts
BJ has already told you about scaring away your fish much better to console him and tell him how unlucky he was / lucky you were and take another stack off him.

Originally Posted by Keith_MM

A9 : nice hand.

TT: 16/15 doesn't exactly appear bad stats and not sure that you are interpreting them correctly : A normal 16/15 taking that line you'd have to consider overpairs, flush draws sets to be in his range.

About A9: Thanks. About TT: Sorry, I used the raw number and not the percentage. He had played 16/19 hands and raised 15/19, so he was 84/79 through 19. My bad. Still learning the argot.

Finally, the guys who push on the river. These guys are also often bluffing, as your average $2NL player will slow play or micro bet a draw or a made hand, then when they get to the river, they'll think "Oh boy. If I push, he'll probably know I have a hand and fold. So I'm gonna think about it for 3-5 seconds, then just bet out 90% of my stack. That'll fool 'em!" But sometimes they're not. If you've played the hand to the river, hopefully the decision to call will be much easier.

Originally Posted by Keith_MM

This is incredibly bad advice. You should be putting your opponent on a range of hands each street and taking notes. Calling a shove with no consideration of how your hand fares against his range is incredibly bad for your winrate. Theres no need to bluff at 2NL because people will call a shove with bottom pair. And if you have the nuts make sure your stack is in by the showdown and you will be amazed at what people will show you because they THOUGHT you were bluffing. As you move up if you are calling shoves on the river without a good read that he bluffs a lot or think that your hand is ahead of his range you are spewing money away.
What is even worse at 2NL is that when people succesfully bluff you off a pot they will often show you what they had. Whilst its handy to have a note that they bluff with air be wary that they aren't setting you up for the shove with the nuts
BJ has already told you about scaring away your fish much better to console him and tell him how unlucky he was / lucky you were and take another stack off him.

It was getting kind of late and the post was long, and re-reading it I was very unclear. All the information you gathered throughout the hand will make the decision to call OR fold easier. By information, I mean essentially what you said: Put him on a range each street and act accordingly. I didn't mean just call on the river because I assume he's bluffing. I'm sure other people could elaborate on the different river scenarios re: position and stuff. At my current level of skill and real-time info processing, it's hard for me to get specific about what actions should be taken on a river push. I was just trying to say it's a case-by-case basis.

Originally Posted by Keith_MM

AdKs : 3bet pre fine but WTF with the check raise ?. either cbet it or check fold i think. Villain called your 3 bet and is now betting the flop , You have to give him credit for at least having a hand worth continuing. What are you hoping for an A or K ? even then you could still be behind .On the turn ? stacking off with Air is stupid , he's raised and called a 3bet pre ,bet the flop and shoved the turn and you have air how often are you good here??
You say that he was bad , he could just as easily be saying how bad you played it you 3 bet pre and then check called down , he could quite easily have thought you were FOS pre and we don't know how much he'd seen you play and what you'd showed down. After seeing you play this hand every one else should have a note on you saying that you stack of with air with a big ace that misses. If he already had that read on you it can explain his play.

I am abundantly aware of how badly I played this hand. Horrible. Shameful. I'm about 9,000 hand deep in $2NL, and I have 7 hands where I lost -100 bb or more. Of those, two (TWO!) are on Ace high, two are me overplaying KK, and one is of me calling an all-in with 99 when it might as well have been Ace high. Of the 16 hands where I lost between -99 bb and -50 bb, no ace highs. More standard stuff like not spotting trips, losing with TP to TPTK, other stuff I need to work on. But basically, every 3,000 hands or so I have a huge meltdown that costs me a lot of chips. This was one of those. I'm aware of it, which is the first step toward correcting it.

I have an excellent memory for avatars and am fairly certain I haven't run into this guy before, so the read is unlikely. But he certainly played this hand better than me. The "charade" comment was half tongue in cheek.

If you are lost in these types of situations you need to stop playing and read or reread all of the guides here on FTR.. watch a few videos.

But in a nutshell.. make sure you are assigning ranges and then calculating pot odds on all streets.

Lastly, make sure you are never surprised in a hand or questioning what to do next. Before acting make sure you know what you will do should villain call or raise... all on streets and before the flop hits.

Professional NL Hold'em by Miller is awesome at learning to plan your hands. Read it a few times.