Home Game Dilemma - am I just making excuses

Hi folks, this may seem like a strange post, but I want to settle something in my own mind.

I been playing online for about 6 months. In that time I've probably played about 15000 hands with a reasonable amount of success at micro-limit cash games. I also play in a home game with 7 other guys in the following format. We each receive $300 chips (buyin of $10) blind start at $5/$10 and double for each player eliminated. I guess its most similar to a Turbo. I'm playing a mix of guys (none of which play seriouslly online or have significant experience other than in home games; heck some have only been playing 3 months. NOW...I find I am hardly ever winning these tournaments even though I consider myself a far better player than most of the players. I play tight positional poker, but try to mix things up occasisonally so I dont come to be seen as too tight. Now as I say, I seem to get busted over and over and over again by guys who refuse to fold, and end up beating me on the turn or river. I am so frustrated, as feel my skills and all the time I have put into the game which they haven't is lost - and that I might as well know nothing about the game (like they do) and rely on blind luck.

But I dont want to do that as I love this game too much

NOW TO MY POINT......
Is the style of home tourney we run a bit like a 'lottery' as I suspect it might be? I mean, is it possible that with blinds so high in relation to your initial stack that any advantage I hold in both knowledge and practical aspects of the game are lost - or am I just trying to make excuses for the fact that I am not winning ?

I really appreciate any feedback.

Happy holidays and GL all

The blinds in relation to stack size seem WAY too high. In an online tournament, you would tend to start with a stack size of 1000 with blinds at 5/10.

I guess however it depends on how much time you have. if you find you are getting to the end of the game and everybody is desperate to go home, that's probably your problem. The game is being rushed which is the reason for the low starting stack, and this brings luck in to the equation in greater quantities than it should.

If you are busting out on the turn and river so often, perhaps you are putting too many chips on the line too often. If you're friends aren't very good - why bother trying to mix things up and not be seen as tight? If they are playing bad hands, I would stay tight, watch them all bust out, and wait for premium hands so when they did hit a car on the turn and river, chances are I would still be ahead when they bet hard.

Anyway, it's a very difficult question without more information. But the bit where you say "I might as well know nothing about the game (like they do)" would say the following to me;

1) If they are all relying on blind luck, this dramatically reduces the worth of any skill you have. Forget bluffing, pot odds, table image, position etc, they all become worthless against opponents that have no idea what these are.

2) Are you playing for fun, or to win? If it's for fun, who cares if you win or lose. Over time, they will get better, and as they do, you might be able to start winning. If you are playing to win - well you need to perhaps think about who you invite to the game!

3) How do you know you are better than them and that they are winning with luck? Many people will say that if you are good, you should be able to beat any game. Perhaps you just need to adjust your style to the way they play. Maybe they are much better than you give them credit for and they are just exploiting your obvious tight playing style.

Anyway - im rambling now - I'll shut up.

All valid points, and I thank you for taking the time to respond

Originally Posted by satan1974

1) If they are all relying on blind luck, this dramatically reduces the worth of any skill you have. Forget bluffing, pot odds, table image, position etc, they all become worthless against opponents that have no idea what these are.

This is just a silly thing to say. Fair enough bluffing is worthless against opponents who wont fold and table image doesnt matter if noone is paying attention but pot odds and position are never worthless. If you are in first position with 22 in a game where 80% of the time people are raising behind you you fold every time. If you are last to act then you fold all those times it is raised and you call the times it isnt. This is obviously a huge advantage as that 20% of the time you have a cheap chance of making a set and taking someones stack.
In a game where all players are relying on luck you still rely on pot odds to make profitable plays.

Situation 1: Hero is in the BB with A 5
All call around to hero who checks
Flop: 6 7 Q
All check to button who goes allin. SB folds.

Should you call?

Situation 2: Hero is in the BB with A 5
All call around to hero who checks
Flop: 6 7 Q
UTG is allin, all 7 other players call allin around to Hero
Should you call?

In situation 1 you have a crazy player who moves allin giving you pretty much 1:1 odds and you should fold your flush draw. In situation 2 you are getting 8:1 pot odds on a nut flush draw and you would be crazy to not call. Granted this is a pretty unlikely situation but it still shows that pot odds are always important no matter how bad the opponents are who you are playing against.

Notice also how in situation 2 you would have had to fold if you were first to act. This is another positional advantage.

Edit: Pot odds become MORE valuble against opponents who dont understand what they are. If the stacks are deeps and noone goes allin, good players with a Q will tend to bet at least half the pot because they understand that they need to give you bad drawing odds to make a profit. Bad players may minbet or minraise because they dont understand that there is a dangerous draw that is making a profit on every single one of their underbets. IN this situation your A 5 is very likely to be behind since all you hold is A high, but because you understand the concept of pot odds you are able to profitably call small bets whilst profitably folding to large overbets bets.

Originally Posted by Pelion

In a game where all players are relying on luck you still rely on pot odds to make profitable plays.

I disagree. This is a home game, not an online game. More importantly this is a _tournament_ not a cash game. Pot odds are great in cash games where you can sit there for 100,000 hands and know that making the same play over and over again will make you a long term winner. In a tournament, once you have no chips left you lose. So chasing a flush because you have pot odds becomes completely irrelevant if you are on the bubble and against the chip leader with 2 very short stacks who aren't in the hand with you.

It's just the same as people who say they are "pot committed" in a tournament and throw away the game. Say you have 1000 chips, you've already bet 900 of them in to the current hand, by the time the river comes you _know_ you are beaten but you throw in your last 100 chips because you are "pot committed". Rubbish! Fold! You could double up twice and nearly be back to where you just were. Tournaments are about survival - and in a game where people are loose and rubbish, sit tight and let them knock each other out. So many times I've been sitting on a loose table and have literally folded my way in to the money without playing or calling a single hand - let the idiots knock themselves out, then wait for a premium hand and double up through the chip leader (who no doubt is in that position because of dumb luck!).

Sorry but I stand by my original comments - but acknowledge they are my opinions and everyone has the right to disagree. Hopefully the original poster will get something out of both of our replies and will give him something to think about.

I agree with Pelion, in that if I'm on the bubble middle stacked ,I get someone to call my all in- they getting 2/1 on their naked flush draw aginst my 2 pair counterfeiting one or two of their flush draw outs, and they suck out- so be it. In the long run it would put me in position to win the tourney having way the best of it (70/30) when my money went in. If your getting your money all in with the best of it and they suck out over and over, are you sure you had that much the best of it? Not a coin flip with a slight edge but a solid edge, you want them to call without pot odds, always.

Originally Posted by satan1974

It's just the same as people who say they are "pot committed" in a tournament and throw away the game. Say you have 1000 chips, you've already bet 900 of them in to the current hand, by the time the river comes you _know_ you are beaten but you throw in your last 100 chips because you are "pot committed". Rubbish! Fold! You could double up twice and nearly be back to where you just were. Tournaments are about survival - and in a game where people are loose and rubbish, sit tight and let them knock each other out. So many times I've been sitting on a loose table and have literally folded my way in to the money without playing or calling a single hand - let the idiots knock themselves out, then wait for a premium hand and double up through the chip leader (who no doubt is in that position because of dumb luck!).

Sorry but I stand by my original comments - but acknowledge they are my opinions and everyone has the right to disagree. Hopefully the original poster will get something out of both of our replies and will give him something to think about.

Ok you got me there, this is a gross oversimplification and is also more applicable to cash games, but surely you can see that there is a point where the pot odds would demand that you call. Say you are getting those same 8:1 odds but this time you are a massive chip leader and all you have to put in is 1/8 of your stack to see the river. Surely now this must become a call. You wont be in any danger of losing the tournament if you lose, and that 1 time you win you will double your chips. Add to that the fact that every time you lose you are only adding a small fraction to the chips of the guy who wins the pot and every time you win (1/3 of the time) you are taking someone out who would have caught you up in chips had you not been in the hand and i cant see how your tournament equity doesnt increase more by calling. Now this situation is pretty unrealistic but similar, less extreme situations occur all the time.

[quate]We each receive $300 chips (buyin of $10) blind start at $5/$10 and double for each player eliminated[/quate]

This is a very problematic format, since you dont know when players will be elimenated, you cannot plan any tournament strategy based on stack sizes and blind sizes. 3 players can be knocked out in 3 consecutive hands, and from having a 300 stack with blinds 10/20, which means you have 15BB and a lot of breathing room you have blinds at 80/160 and you have to push the next hand.

If you can change the structure to increase the blinds based on time or number of hands.
Check out www.homepokertourney.com or the forum on home games.

Next issue - I assume most of the players play pretty loose, and this means you have to adjust your game from the online variaty.
Raise preflop when you have premium hands - AA, KK, QQ, AK
Limp other pocket pairs, suited connectors, AQ.

With 4-5 people seeing the flop and making loose calls there is no reason to push with TPTK. You need to make the money when you hit the monsters - a set, str8, high flush or better

Thanks TLR, thats very useful information

This is so typical of home games, that game (just like the B&M game you posted about in the other forum) is going to be a crapshoot (ironic, your town needs better rules!)

Reminds me of the typical home game here (and why I don't play them): 30 "chips" to start, 1/2 blinds that double every 10 minutes, winner takes all but 2nd get his buyin back.

Try to convince them that they could make it a better style

FYI, Your format seems like the stacks are pretty deep, compared to Party SNGs and the like. Just play a solid game and don't play for implied odds.

How is 30BB pretty deep? The PartyPoker crapshoot gives you 800 chips w/ blinds at 15/30 for 26BB, about the same.

If you could get them to start with $500 that would be good. I agree that the format is flawed. I could see the first blind level taking over an hour, the next being done in 30 min, then the game being over 30 min later.

PartyPoker blinds start at 10/15, so 800 chips is 53 BB. 15/30 is level 2.

That HomePokerTourney website is very good... they have a superb tourney structure on there. i got a little bit of resistance to it when i introduced it to my home game... "this isnt a casino" "whats wrong with it as it is" "doubling it is much easier" and so on

but after they tried it for a tourney they realised it was better.

You can adopt to any blind structure and figure out how to play it if the structure is fixed.
Using a 'player knocked out' as an event to double the blinds means that practicly you have no idea when the blinds go up and therefore cannot have any game plan

So the most important factor is to have a blind system which is well known and fixed, next in importance is to have it structured correctly according to number of players, initial stack and preferred duration

With this format, there is only one move. ALL IN. If you're not playing push poker in this game, than you're kidding yourself. A good tournament for you should be a series of 60/40 races that hold up. Yes it is a lottery. It's a lottery bent slightly in your favor, if you choose better cards to race with. There should be no talk of pot odds, or too many preflop callers. ALL IN. Every time you are going to raise, you PUSH.

I play a home game where blinds start at $5-$10, and we get 1000 chips. Each game lasts about an hour and a half, and we don't have to push each time we raise. That's fine with me. I would outright refuse to start with 300 chips. It's not poker. It's a race party. Oh did I say Party?