Help me understand what is it I am trying to do...

in NL ring? Let me preface by saying I used to play limit micros, have read small stakes holdem multiple times. In that game, what you try to basically do is play premium hands, raise and call with good draws, and hope you end up on top at the end. You aren't playing the player much in that game at all, in fact you could simply play your own cards, and position, and as long as you know how to calculate outs vs. pot odds, you can win. So typically in a session if you played long enough and you were playing correctly, you would slowly grow your stack, it was almost linear vs. time.

Now I am trying NL. It seems I can play and play, and my stack just sits at even, or slightly up. It seems the ONLY pots I really win are without showdown, when I cbet or 2 barrell or pick a timely place to bluff when I know the opponents are very weak.

Typical hand, I raise pre-flop, miss the board or maybe hit a pair, cbet, opp folds, I win whatever I raised. It seems when I actually have great draws or BIG hands, I can't get anyone to put any money in?

So, could someone explain to me when NL ring, as a good player, what are you trying to do from a high level? Is it slowly build a stack like LHE, or are you just trying to tread water until you can stack somebody? I have a few hands below from a session today where I thought I could get a big pot but it fizzled out....

Someone please explain to me how do I grow the pot without allowing my opponent to outdraw me, how do I get them to play back at me when I have big hands?

A lot of time when we raise PF we miss the flop and cbet, and we take it down right there and I am happy with that. Sometimes I get played back at in those situations, but almost never when I actually do hit.

This is bordering on rambling now, I guess I just don't know what if "feels" like to play winning NL ring. Seems I am almost never all in unless I am calling an all in....which usually I am behind(that might be my best revelation from the past few weeks). Should I just shove more and hope people think I am full of it and call?

Get a line of weak players to your left. Steal the blinds once (or twice) every single orbit. Do it from MP3 to SB randomly, do it just often enough to make it obvious. As long as you've got donks to your right they will (quite rightly) lower their calling range against you and they'll never see it when you DO catch cards in LP. Follow it up with C-bets on the flop & turn, and take a few small pots this way. Depending on your opponent they will typically start to fight back on the 3rd or 4th attempt, so watch for resistance. You need less credibility when you raise, this is a simple way to do it. I had someone call my TPTK with a freakin gutshot because he thought I was on another steal.

sample size?

bet sizing?

Getting played back at only when you've missed is variance. Noone knows exactly when and when you don't have a hand and this will even out over time and you will get paid off.

What stakes <(edit) of NL are you playing?

If you're just switching over to NLH the strategy articles in the digest are a good place to look.

Originally Posted by Carroters

Getting played back at only when you've missed is variance. Noone knows exactly when and when you don't have a hand and this will even out over time and you will get paid off.

What steaks of NL are you playing?

If you're just switching over to NLH the strategy articles in the digest are a good place to look.

mmmm steak

are you tight?

maybe too tight

I never really played limit, but I've read the occasional post on the difference between the two, so there are a few scattered thoughts I think might be useful to you.

In Limit the pot can end up being big relative to the bet sizes, which can create a situation where you are pretty much always priced in on immediate pot odds against an opponents range.

In NL the players can always make the bet size big relative to the pot. This means you can always deny odds, you can often get implied odds, you can run into gross reverse implied odds situations.

Because of this position is much much much more important in NL than in limit. Because of this you're looking to protect your stack, not protect the pot.

It's often correct in NL to simply fold any middling strength hand because of what it will cost you on a later street to continue on this street. Fold before putting a lot of money in, if you think it likely you're going to end up folding anyway. Especially at micro stakes weak tight is a winning strategy.

Being in position and knowing what hands your opponent is likely to be playing are both very important in NL. Probably both are more important than what you are holding.

Be very very tight out of position - be quite loose in position. Try to put your opponent on a hand all the time, take his playing tendencies into account and try to figure out if he is capable of folding or prone to calling. Generally don't bet as a bluff as the pot balloons out of control quite easily. Be very patient. Respect the opponent - a call of a sizable bet is a sign of strength, a raise is a sign of great strength.

Generally open shoving (as an overbet) is not profitable. Most opponents won't call you unless hey have something near the nuts, and those who will call with less will pay you off with less if you pick a different line also.

Originally Posted by flomo

are you tight?

maybe too tight

To clarify I am playing 2NL at the moment. 6300 hands I am running 18.85/7.7/3.38, with a winrate of 5.21 BB/100. I have a feeling you guys will now reply and tell me that I am doing just fine with this winrate, but I believe I can be over 10 with no problems. I have called off my stack in some bad spots a few times early in these 6K hands when I was REALLY learning.

I would still like someone to tell me what a typical session is like. For instance, if you usually 4 table, when you finish a session of say 400 hands, are you typically up on all 4? Or are you up a buy in on one table, but down a little on a couple others? (I hope what I am asking makes sense at all).

It can vary KeeKoly sometimes im up on all some times im up a few BI on one and down on others. The seperate tables do not matter, Just keep looking at the winrate as a whole. So you lsoe $2 on one table, you may be up $6 on another.

Originally Posted by Erpel

Because of this position is much much much more important in NL than in limit. Because of this you're looking to protect your stack, not protect the pot.

This isn't really a fair description of limit. Position is extremely important in limit, but for somewhat different reasons.

I see no limit regulars portraying limit all the time as people getting into a pot, getting a drawing hand, and then calling down and either sucking out or not sucking out. In fact, your ability to do reads and fold when you can't improve to win on the last 2 streets-- even if a pot is big-- is crucial to being a winning limit player. Those turn and river calls cost you a significant amount of money, and you need to be avoiding making them when you are drawing dead or have lousy pot odds. And to do that successfully, it turns out, that a lot of the same things that are important in no limit-- playing premium hands, aggression, and position-- are also important in limit. These are the tactics that help you determine where you are in the hand, and knowing where you are determines whether you should keep calling or not.

Well, I don't know what happened, call it Karma or whatever you want, but since I posted this yesterday, I have played 775 hands at 2NL, this was all today and I won some monster pots, ended up $14.50 in those hands, winrate of 46.71 BB/100 on the day. I guess it comes and goes, thanks for the replies nonetheless.

I think getting coaching is extremely important. I actually found that database analysis is one of the most cost effective ways to plug your leaks fast. Sites like Acepokercoach have a database analysis program that I think is extremely helpful. The leak finder software is a great tool as well. It's all a non-stop learning process!