Hello and Other Stuff

Hello Everyone,

I just started playing online a few weeks ago and at about the same time found this site. I have enjoyed reading your discussions a great deal and have found your input very helpful. I have been playang at Party Poker. As most, I started playing in the play money rooms for some time, then took the plunge and made my first deposit. I went to the .25/.50 limit rooms first, but quickly soured on them. I just didn't enjoy them (read that - I was losing money). Next, I spent some time in the $5/1 No Limit SnG. In those I was holding my own money wise and it helped me realize that I like the No Limit game more, at least to this point.

So, I moved over to the $25 NL games. My initial efforts went pretty well. After about 3 days I was up about $260 and feeling quite good about myself. However, now after several more days, I'm down about $25 (meaning -$285 from my high) and feeling not as well as before.

As a newbie, I am finding it difficult to get a good read on how I am playing. After about 4,000 hands (I purchased Poker Tracker - great piece of software), I am putting voluntarily putting money in the pot 25.93% of the time. Which I think means I'm not playing too many hands. But on the other hand, I feel like a rock (My aggresions rating in PT is: Pre-flolp=.19; Flop=2.39; Turn=1.72; River=1.44; Overall=.63). I am raising Pre-flop 4.23% of the time. I feel like I should be more aggressive; yet, aggression can easily become loose play. Balancing those concepts seems to me relates to making sure you play only good starting hands, but to play them aggressively. That is much easier to say than do.

A typical session for me usually has me holding my own in the room until a big pot happens. I either make a lot or lose a lot in one hand. I am having trouble building my stack through winning small pots. I've included below 10 hands which show the worst loses I've had in the last several days. I'd like some input on how I played these hands. Some just look like bad beasts to me and some look like stupidity.

Again, I think this is a great site a look forward to getting to know all of you better,

Thanks
aneratergos

1) Pocket Ten's lose to an Ace River

***** Hand History for Game 831544059 *****
0/0 TEXASHTGAMETABLE (NL) - TUE AUG 10 14:56:02 EDT 2004
Table Table 14048 (6 max) (Real Money) -- Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: gus_16 ( $25.20)
Seat 2: mikeymcd24 ( $18.85)
Seat 3: McGurgen ( $77.65)
Seat 4: quahogger ( $27.10)
Seat 5: Placerbay ( $43.86)
Seat 6: aneratergos ( $51.72)
gus_16 posts small blind (0.25)
mikeymcd24 posts big blind (0.50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to aneratergos [ Ts, Td ]
quahogger folds.
aneratergos raises (1) to 1
gus_16 folds.
mikeymcd24 raises (2.50) to 3
aneratergos raises (24) to 25
mikeymcd24 calls (15.85)
mikeymcd24 is all-In.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 7d, 3d, 2s ]
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 5h ]
** Dealing River ** : [ Ac ]
Creating Main Pot with $37.95 with mikeymcd24
** Summary **
Main Pot: $37.95 | Side Pot 1: $6.15 | Rake: $0
Board: [ 7d 3d 2s 5h Ac ]
gus_16 balance $24.95, lost $0.25 (folded)
mikeymcd24 balance $37.95, bet $18.85, collected $37.95, net +$19.10 [ 6d Ad ] [ a pair of aces -- Ad,Ac,7d,6d,5h ]
McGurgen balance $77.65, sits out
quahogger balance $27.10, didn't bet (folded)
Placerbay balance $43.86, sits out
aneratergos balance $32.87, bet $25, collected $6.15, lost -$18.85 [ Ts Td ] [ a pair of tens -- Ac,Ts,Td,7d,5h ]


2) Pocket Ten's lose to Queens

***** Hand History for Game 819188798 *****
0/0 TEXASHTGAMETABLE (NL) - FRI AUG 06 13:04:53 EDT 2004
Table Table 14479 (6 max) (Real Money) -- Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 1: tampy ( $16.50)
Seat 2: derekmurr ( $9.90)
Seat 3: aneratergos ( $20)
Seat 5: roburmonies ( $13.40)
Seat 6: dec2703 ( $39.10)
tampy posts small blind (0.25)
derekmurr posts big blind (0.50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to aneratergos [ Th, Ts ]
aneratergos calls (0.50)
roburmonies calls (0.50)
dec2703 calls (0.50)
tampy raises (1.75) to 2
derekmurr calls (1.50)
aneratergos calls (1.50)
roburmonies folds.
dec2703 calls (1.50)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 9h, Qs, 4d ]
tampy checks.
derekmurr checks.
aneratergos bets (2)
dec2703 calls (2)
tampy folds.
derekmurr folds.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 2c ]
aneratergos checks.
dec2703 bets (4)
aneratergos raises (16) to 16
aneratergos is all-In.
dec2703 calls (12)
** Dealing River ** : [ 3h ]
Creating Main Pot with $42.50 with aneratergos
** Summary **
Main Pot: $42.50 | | Rake: $2
Board: [ 9h Qs 4d 2c 3h ]
tampy balance $14.50, lost $2 (folded)
derekmurr balance $7.90, lost $2 (folded)
aneratergos balance $0, lost $20 [ Th Ts ] [ a pair of tens -- Qs,Th,Ts,9h,4d ]
Jonblaze12 balance $18, sits out
roburmonies balance $12.90, lost $0.50 (folded)
dec2703 balance $61.60, bet $20, collected $42.50, net +$22.50 [ Qd 7d ] [ a pair of queens -- Qd,Qs,9h,7d,4d ]


3) Three's full of Kings lose to Kings full of Sixes

***** Hand History for Game 832905652 *****
0/0 TEXASHTGAMETABLE (NL) - TUE AUG 10 22:43:07 EDT 2004
Table Table 14112 (6 max) (Real Money) -- Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: ardin ( $56.37)
Seat 2: grz_1 ( $19.55)
Seat 3: Lynchmob2198 ( $36)
Seat 4: z3185 ( $58.20)
Seat 5: Zaint ( $71.85)
Seat 6: aneratergos ( $24.85)
aneratergos posts small blind (0.25)
ardin posts big blind (0.50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to aneratergos [ 3s, 3d ]
grz_1 folds.
Lynchmob2198 calls (0.50)
z3185 calls (0.50)
Zaint calls (0.50)
aneratergos calls (0.25)
ardin checks.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 3c, 5c, Kd ]
aneratergos bets (0.50)
ardin calls (0.50)
Lynchmob2198 folds.
z3185 raises (3) to 3
Zaint folds.
aneratergos raises (23.85) to 24.35
aneratergos is all-In.
ardin folds.
z3185 calls (21.35)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Kc ]
** Dealing River ** : [ 6h ]
Creating Main Pot with $49.70 with aneratergos
** Summary **
Main Pot: $49.70 | | Rake: $2
Board: [ 3c 5c Kd Kc 6h ]
ardin balance $55.37, lost $1 (folded)
grz_1 balance $19.55, didn't bet (folded)
Lynchmob2198 balance $35.50, lost $0.50 (folded)
z3185 balance $83.05, bet $24.85, collected $49.70, net +$24.85 [ 6c Ks ] [ a full house, Kings full of sixes -- Ks,Kd,Kc,6c,6h ]
Zaint balance $71.35, lost $0.50 (folded)
aneratergos balance $0, lost $24.85 [ 3s 3d ] [ a full house, Threes full of kings -- Kd,Kc,3s,3d,3c ]



4) 3 Kings lose to Kings full of Nines

***** Hand History for Game 821693104 *****
0/0 TEXASHTGAMETABLE (NL) - SAT AUG 07 05:02:56 EDT 2004
Table Table 14066 (6 max) (Real Money) -- Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: Jayee ( $23.75)
Seat 2: simmott1414 ( $85.15)
Seat 3: aneratergos ( $38.70)
Seat 4: Dubra1 ( $20.25)
Seat 5: bliz504917 ( $49.80)
Seat 6: ToOMaNy4Ces ( $15.85)
simmott1414 posts small blind (0.25)
aneratergos posts big blind (0.50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to aneratergos [ Kh, 6s ]
Dubra1 did not respond in time.
Dubra1 folds.
bliz504917 calls (0.50)
ToOMaNy4Ces calls (0.50)
Jayee folds.
simmott1414 calls (0.25)
aneratergos checks.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Kc, Kd, 5s ]
simmott1414 checks.
aneratergos checks.
bliz504917 checks.
ToOMaNy4Ces checks.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Js ]
simmott1414 bets (2)
aneratergos calls (2)
bliz504917 folds.
ToOMaNy4Ces raises (4) to 4
simmott1414 calls (2)
aneratergos raises (8) to 10
ToOMaNy4Ces raises (11.35) to 15.35
ToOMaNy4Ces is all-In.
simmott1414 folds.
aneratergos calls (5.35)
** Dealing River ** : [ 9s ]
Creating Main Pot with $34.90 with ToOMaNy4Ces
** Summary **
Main Pot: $34.90 | | Rake: $1.80
Board: [ Kc Kd 5s Js 9s ]
Jayee balance $23.75, didn't bet (folded)
simmott1414 balance $80.65, lost $4.50 (folded)
aneratergos balance $22.85, lost $15.85 [ Kh 6s ] [ three of a kind, kings -- Kh,Kc,Kd,Js,9s ]
Dubra1 balance $20.25, didn't bet (folded)
bliz504917 balance $49.30, lost $0.50 (folded)
ToOMaNy4Ces balance $34.90, bet $15.85, collected $34.90, net +$19.05 [ Ks 9c ] [ a full house, Kings full of nines -- Ks,Kc,Kd,9c,9s ]

5) Folded to Set of 5's

***** Hand History for Game 818280312 *****
0/0 TEXASHTGAMETABLE (NL) - FRI AUG 06 01:39:57 EDT 2004
Table Table 15385 (6 max) (Real Money) -- Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: plmiller ( $17.20)
Seat 2: USNick ( $22.60)
Seat 3: shawnhck ( $26.85)
Seat 4: muffiediver ( $21.20)
Seat 5: aneratergos ( $31.20)
Seat 6: ssw168 ( $24)
aneratergos posts small blind (0.25)
ssw168 posts big blind (0.50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to aneratergos [ 5d, 5c ]
plmiller folds.
USNick calls (0.50)
shawnhck: yeah
shawnhck calls (0.50)
muffiediver folds.
aneratergos calls (0.25)
ssw168 checks.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 4c, 5s, 3c ]
aneratergos bets (0.50)
ssw168 raises (3) to 3
USNick folds.
shawnhck calls (3)
aneratergos raises (7.50) to 8
ssw168 did not respond in time.
ssw168 folds.
USNick: jnesus
USNick: christ
shawnhck calls (5)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Ad ]
aneratergos bets (3)
shawnhck raises (10) to 10
aneratergos folds.
** Summary **
Main Pot: $32.65 | Rake: $1.35
Board: [ 4c 5s 3c Ad ]
plmiller balance $17.20, didn't bet (folded)
USNick balance $22.10, lost $0.50 (folded)
shawnhck balance $41, bet $18.50, collected $32.65, net +$14.15
muffiediver balance $21.20, didn't bet (folded)
aneratergos balance $19.70, lost $11.50 (folded)
ssw168 balance $20.50, lost $3.50 (folded)

6) Jacks lose to Nines

***** Hand History for Game 831615708 *****
0/0 TEXASHTGAMETABLE (NL) - TUE AUG 10 15:28:44 EDT 2004
Table Table 14048 (6 max) (Real Money) -- Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 1: gemdrops ( $30.20)
Seat 2: yoondog615 ( $10.40)
Seat 3: gutshot24 ( $36.65)
Seat 5: ik88aw1 ( $27.45)
Seat 6: aneratergos ( $34.82)
ik88aw1 posts small blind (0.25)
aneratergos posts big blind (0.50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to aneratergos [ Jc, Ks ]
gemdrops raises (1) to 1
yoondog615 folds.
gutshot24 folds.
ik88aw1 folds.
aneratergos calls (0.50)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Jd, 4c, 8s ]
aneratergos bets (3)
gemdrops calls (3)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 9s ]
aneratergos bets (2)
gemdrops raises (4) to 4
aneratergos calls (2)
** Dealing River ** : [ 3d ]
aneratergos checks.
gemdrops bets (6)
aneratergos calls (6)
** Summary **
Main Pot: $26.85 | Rake: $1.40
Board: [ Jd 4c 8s 9s 3d ]
gemdrops balance $43.05, bet $14, collected $26.85, net +$12.85 [ 9c 9d ] [ three of a kind, nines -- Jd,9c,9d,9s,8s ]
yoondog615 balance $10.40, didn't bet (folded)
gutshot24 balance $36.65, didn't bet (folded)
phantomdw2 balance $25, sits out
ik88aw1 balance $27.20, lost $0.25 (folded)
aneratergos balance $20.82, lost $14 [ Jc Ks ] [ a pair of jacks -- Ks,Jc,Jd,9s,8s ]


7) Jacks lose to Queens

***** Hand History for Game 830339993 *****
0/0 TEXASHTGAMETABLE (NL) - TUE AUG 10 00:14:50 EDT 2004
Table Table 14170 (6 max) (Real Money) -- Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 1: Matt_ingly23 ( $77.18)
Seat 2: twosvenoff ( $25.70)
Seat 3: keeper38 ( $21.20)
Seat 4: aneratergos ( $17.75)
Seat 5: drewbop ( $29.90)
aneratergos posts small blind (0.25)
drewbop posts big blind (0.50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to aneratergos [ Jc, Jh ]
Matt_ingly23 folds.
twosvenoff folds.
keeper38 calls (0.50)
aneratergos raises (2.75) to 3
drewbop calls (2.50)
keeper38 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 7c, 2c, Qs ]
aneratergos bets (4)
drewbop raises (26.90) to 26.90
drewbop is all-In.
aneratergos calls (10.75)
aneratergos is all-In.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 6d ]
** Dealing River ** : [ 8c ]
Creating Main Pot with $34.20 with aneratergos
Creating Side Pot 1 with $12.15 with drewbop
** Summary **
Main Pot: $34.20 | Side Pot 1: $12.15 | Rake: $1.80
Board: [ 7c 2c Qs 6d 8c ]
Matt_ingly23 balance $77.18, didn't bet (folded)
twosvenoff balance $25.70, didn't bet (folded)
keeper38 balance $20.70, lost $0.50 (folded)
aneratergos balance $0, lost $17.75 [ Jc Jh ] [ a pair of jacks -- Qs,Jc,Jh,8c,7c ]
drewbop balance $46.35, bet $29.90, collected $46.35, net +$16.45 [ Th Qc ] [ a pair of queens -- Qc,Qs,Th,8c,7c ]
taylortribe balance $6, sits out



8) A's and 2's lose to a set of 6's

***** Hand History for Game 827291945 *****
0/0 TEXASHTGAMETABLE (NL) - MON AUG 09 00:02:08 EDT 2004
Table Table 14487 (6 max) (Real Money) -- Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: raven3449 ( $13.90)
Seat 2: bbeamer777 ( $21.35)
Seat 3: HammerDon ( $25.05)
Seat 4: yong1013 ( $17.70)
Seat 5: aneratergos ( $28.40)
Seat 6: SomeKid85 ( $25.85)
aneratergos posts small blind (0.25)
SomeKid85 posts big blind (0.50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to aneratergos [ 2h, Ad ]
raven3449 calls (0.50)
bbeamer777 folds.
HammerDon calls (0.50)
yong1013 calls (0.50)
aneratergos calls (0.25)
SomeKid85 checks.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 9d, Ac, 2d ]
aneratergos checks.
SomeKid85 checks.
raven3449 checks.
HammerDon checks.
yong1013 checks.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 6c ]
aneratergos bets (2)
SomeKid85 folds.
raven3449 calls (2)
HammerDon calls (2)
yong1013 folds.
** Dealing River ** : [ 4h ]
aneratergos bets (5)
raven3449 raises (10) to 10
HammerDon folds.
aneratergos calls (5)
** Summary **
Main Pot: $27.10 | Rake: $1.40
Board: [ 9d Ac 2d 6c 4h ]
raven3449 balance $28.50, bet $12.50, collected $27.10, net +$14.60 [ 6h 6s ] [ three of a kind, sixes -- Ac,9d,6h,6s,6c ]
bbeamer777 balance $21.35, didn't bet (folded)
HammerDon balance $22.55, lost $2.50 (folded)
yong1013 balance $17.20, lost $0.50 (folded)
aneratergos balance $15.90, lost $12.50 [ 2h Ad ] [ two pairs, aces and twos -- Ad,Ac,9d,2h,2d ]
SomeKid85 balance $25.35, lost $0.50 (folded)


9) A's and 8's lose to A's and Q's

***** Hand History for Game 828176830 *****
0/0 TEXASHTGAMETABLE (NL) - MON AUG 09 09:57:21 EDT 2004
Table Table 14100 (6 max) (Real Money) -- Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: PokaMenaZ ( $18.05)
Seat 2: aneratergos ( $33.10)
Seat 3: jasdog3 ( $25)
Seat 4: stevekent53 ( $25.15)
Seat 5: Emoryuva ( $17.70)
Seat 6: Silver_Cloud ( $24.25)
stevekent53 posts small blind (0.25)
Emoryuva posts big blind (0.50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to aneratergos [ 8d, 8h ]
Silver_Cloud folds.
PokaMenaZ calls (0.50)
aneratergos calls (0.50)
stevekent53 calls (0.25)
Emoryuva checks.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 5s, 9c, Qs ]
stevekent53 checks.
Emoryuva checks.
PokaMenaZ checks.
aneratergos bets (2)
stevekent53 calls (2)
Emoryuva folds.
PokaMenaZ calls (2)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Ac ]
stevekent53 checks.
PokaMenaZ checks.
aneratergos checks.
** Dealing River ** : [ Ad ]
stevekent53 bets (4)
PokaMenaZ folds.
aneratergos calls (4)
** Summary **
Main Pot: $15.20 | Rake: $0.80
Board: [ 5s 9c Qs Ac Ad ]
PokaMenaZ balance $15.55, lost $2.50 (folded)
aneratergos balance $26.60, lost $6.50 [ 8d 8h ] [ two pairs, aces and eights -- Ac,Ad,Qs,8d,8h ]
jasdog3 balance $25, sits out
stevekent53 balance $33.85, bet $6.50, collected $15.20, net +$8.70 [ Qd 4s ] [ two pairs, aces and queens -- Ac,Ad,Qd,Qs,9c ]
Emoryuva balance $17.20, lost $0.50 (folded)
Silver_Cloud balance $24.25, didn't bet (folded)

10) Pocket A's broken by a set of K's (and 7's)!!!!!!!


***** Hand History for Game 831686537 *****
0/0 TEXASHTGAMETABLE (NL) - TUE AUG 10 15:59:05 EDT 2004
Table Table 14048 (6 max) (Real Money) -- Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 1: viper258 ( $17.90)
Seat 3: gutshot24 ( $43.70)
Seat 4: phantomdw2 ( $11.30)
Seat 5: ik88aw1 ( $46.05)
Seat 6: aneratergos ( $7.37)
ik88aw1 posts small blind (0.25)
aneratergos posts big blind (0.50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to aneratergos [ Ad, As ]
viper258 folds.
gutshot24 calls (0.50)
phantomdw2 calls (0.50)
ik88aw1 calls (0.25)
aneratergos raises (1.50) to 2
gutshot24 calls (1.50)
phantomdw2 calls (1.50)
ik88aw1 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 7d, Kc, 6h ]
aneratergos bets (5.37)
aneratergos is all-In.
gutshot24 raises (10.74) to 10.74
phantomdw2 calls (9.30)
phantomdw2 is all-In.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 4c ]
** Dealing River ** : [ 9c ]
Creating Main Pot with $21.51 with aneratergos
Creating Side Pot 1 with $7.46 with phantomdw2
** Summary **
Main Pot: $21.51 | Side Pot 1: $7.46 | Side Pot 2: $1.44 | Rake: $1.50
Board: [ 7d Kc 6h 4c 9c ]
viper258 balance $17.90, didn't bet (folded)
gutshot24 balance $32.40, bet $12.74, collected $1.44, lost -$11.30 [ 7c 7h ] [ three of a kind, sevens -- Kc,9c,7c,7h,7d ]
phantomdw2 balance $28.97, bet $11.30, collected $28.97, net +$17.67 [ Kh Kd ] [ three of a kind, kings -- Kh,Kd,Kc,9c,7d ]
ik88aw1 balance $45.55, lost $0.50 (folded)
aneratergos balance $0, lost $7.37 [ Ad As ] [ a pair of aces -- Ad,As,Kc,9c,7d ]

Originally Posted by aneratergos

After about 4,000 hands (I purchased Poker Tracker - great piece of software), I am putting voluntarily putting money in the pot 25.93% of the time. Which I think means I'm not playing too many hands. But on the other hand, I feel like a rock (My aggresions rating in PT is: Pre-flolp=.19; Flop=2.39; Turn=1.72; River=1.44; Overall=.63). I am raising Pre-flop 4.23% of the time.

Some just look like bad beasts to me and some look like stupidity.

25.93% VPIP sounds quite high to me unless this is short handed. You could sustain this flop % with good post flop skills but I think this is a weakness in your game.


Having looked through the hands some are bad beats some are bad play, I think a lot of them could have been avoided.

Hand 5
Folding the 55 to the Ace scare high card I think was a mistake, the straight is there with the 2 or 6,7 but I think the raise was more brought on from your weak bet or they have hit the ace and you obviously fear it.

You bet $8 on the flop and $3 on the turn, you still had 10 outs to a fullhouse that beats a straight if one is even out.


I'm sure someone will comment on the others.

Welcome to FTR.

Thanks for the reply, Toasty.

A lot of of my hands are short-handed. I've been playing most in the six person games. Here's why so far:

With 5-10 people in the games I've played 3,375 hands and have a loss of $77.19

With 2-4 people in the game I've played 559 hands and won $129.43.

(yes, those $ numbers include some hands that my money numbers from above do not)

Apparently, I'm better short-handed. I'm more comfortable against fewer people. That goes against conventional wisdom for a new player, but short-handed tables scare me less. Its just easier to keep track of how other players are playing.

BTW on table with 9-10 players, I've played 762 hands and VP$IP 145 times (19.03%).

With those numbers is 25.93% still too high?

aneratergos

No they sound fine, seems like you are well on your way, with experiance you will learn when to lay down a good starter or a hand on the flop from.

Try to study betting patterns is all I can say, Fnord has written some great articles about 6max NL try searching for them.

Hand 1: Rather loose call, but he had shit, so I assume you had a good read on him. Looks like a typical maniac.

Hand 2: I don't like that check raise on the turn at all. If you think he has a lower pair, bet a rather small amount again (value bet), as it seems like they're just going to call it down here. If you think he has the Q, fold to that bet on the turn. Its not that big of a pot anyway. And if you think about it, your hand was much better preflop than it was post flop, so if you're going to make a big raise without getting help and with an overcard out, do it preflop. Personally, I'm always very cautious with TT. Only time I really play it hard, besides hitting a set or a low flop of course, is when I'm short stacked in a tournament, and its a good all in hand.

Hand 3: Absolutely nothing you can do about this.

Hand 4: I wouldn't ever reraise that on the turn. Someone's already raised in front of you, so you should know that they have a K and probably a higher kicker. You'd probably call his rather small all in on the river anyway, so it doesn't matter much this specific instance, but you should be thinking you're likely beat here, and that raise on the flop would usually be devestating against a big stack, since you shouldn't call a huge bet on the river, you'd likely just be throwing those chips on the turn away.

Hand 5: By far the hardest decision yet. But its only a $5 raise to a much larger pot. I'd call this one, see if the board pairs, and see how he reacts on the river if it doesn't, to try and read if he has the straight, or if he has something like 2 pair or a lower set and is worried that you have the straight. I think you're laying a set down too easily here, especially given the fact that you have outs even if he does have a straight, and its not that big of a raise.

Hand 6: Tough beat. Before looking at what they had though, I was thinking you should check raise the flop. I almost always check to a preflop raiser from a blind, no matter what I hit. How they react to a check raise will give you a lot more information. But I have a feeling he would've called you anyway, and sucked out on you, so there's not much you could do to avoid this one.

Hand 7: Rather easy fold if you have a big stack. You don't, so the call is ok at the flop. You've already put in like half your stack, and they're more likely to bluff when you're that low, so I'd probably call too. Well played, tough beat.

Hand 8: Absolutely nothing wrong with this one. Even a professional rock would show this down. And you're the SB, so I think your check on the flop was 100% justified with 5 players in the hand.

Hand 9: You should check the flop. Since you didn't preflop raise, there isn't much reason to bet here. Check and see how they react. Good call on the river, even though you lost. Looks like a bluff, and really, they may have been trying to bluff you out, putting you on a Q with a higher kicker, and representing that they tried unsuccessfully to check raise their ace on the turn.

Hand 10: My god, this is a passive game. KK and no reraise preflop?! Anyway, you played this one fine obviously. Tough beat.

1. Don't push with pocket 10s in a cash game unless you have a really good read
2. Your 10s are no good in a multi-pot. The flop bet was lame and I lay this down in limit if I catch a lot of heat.
3. OUCH!
4. Bet the flop
5. With those stacks, you'd have to pry those 5s out of my dead hands.
6. Ouch
7. Fold the flop
8. Fold pre-flop. Bet the flop
9. Dude, fold this crap without a set, it's a serious leak.
10. With that stack, I push pre-flop.

Originally Posted by michael1123

Hand 1: Rather loose call, but he had shit, so I assume you had a good read on him. Looks like a typical maniac.

I think I did. In fact, he gave all of my money and his to another player about ten hands later doing about the same thing.

Hand 2: I don't like that check raise on the turn at all. If you think he has a lower pair, bet a rather small amount again (value bet), as it seems like they're just going to call it down here.

Newbie question here: What do you mean by "value bet?"

Hand 4: I wouldn't ever reraise that on the turn. Someone's already raised in front of you, so you should know that they have a K and probably a higher kicker. You'd probably call his rather small all in on the river anyway, so it doesn't matter much this specific instance, but you should be thinking you're likely beat here, and that raise on the flop would usually be devestating against a big stack, since you shouldn't call a huge bet on the river, you'd likely just be throwing those chips on the turn away.

Ok, I see your point about the re-raise with my bad kicker. My question is at what point (how big of a kicker) should I call the raise? If I'm AK at that point to I re-raise and if so, how much (given the stack as they were and assume decent players at the table)?

Second, I'm not sure I understand your statement at the end about that bet on the flop being devestating against a big stack. Could elaborate some for me?


Thanks for your help.

Originally Posted by Fnord

1. Don't push with pocket 10s in a cash game unless you have a really good read
2. Your 10s are no good in a multi-pot. The flop bet was lame and I lay this down in limit if I catch a lot of heat.
3. OUCH!
4. Bet the flop
5. With those stacks, you'd have to pry those 5s out of my dead hands.
6. Ouch
7. Fold the flop
8. Fold pre-flop. Bet the flop
9. Dude, fold this crap without a set, it's a serious leak.
10. With that stack, I push pre-flop.

So, if I'm catching your point here -- FOLD MIDDLE PAIRS TO OVERCARDS

On hand 4, I'm betting the flop to see if there are other Kings out there? If that's right I fold to a raise and to a call go to the turn? Now I'm out of position again to the winner of the hand, do I bet the turn again or check?

Hand 5, what do you mean by, "with those stacks?"

Thanks for your help.

Originally Posted by aneratergos

Newbie question here: What do you mean by "value bet?"

You have a pretty good hand (higher than the 2nd highest card on the board), but not a great one (as you lose to any Q). A value bet is a rather small bet, that is likely to be called by an OK weaker hand, like A9 in that situation. If you get raised, you have to lay it down, as its likely a pair of Qs or better.

Ok, I see your point about the re-raise with my bad kicker. My question is at what point (how big of a kicker) should I call the raise? If I'm AK at that point to I re-raise and if so, how much (given the stack as they were and assume decent players at the table)?

Even with your kicker, you can call that minimum raise on the turn, but you have to be worried about your kicker. After calling, you can see how he plays it on the river. Lets say the guy had a much bigger stack, and at the river he bets the pot. It hurts, but you should fold, unless you have a read on him that suggests he'd do this with a weak hand on a bluff.

How you'd play AK in that situation is a whole different matter, and it'd change depending on how you think they'd react to a raise, etc. Personally, I'd typically just call with AK on the turn. You know that the raiser likely has a K, so you definitely don't want to scare him from overbetting his trip kings lower kicker on the river, and the guy that opened on the turn can stay in too. But if you do that, you also have to assume that the guy that opened may be on a draw, so you should watch out for a possible straight or flush on the river. Not that you should assume you're beat if one of those hits, but you shouldn't be overbetting or raising big if he bets big. Or he could just have a jack. More reading would be needed on the river in this case as well.

After that, at the river (consider a random river, or that you don't know his cards now), lets say the guy that opened on the turn checks to the guy that raised on the turn. He's sitting there with trip kings, and no one reraised him, so he's likely to think that he has the only king, and make a sizeable bet here. Here's where I'd reraise, which'd certainly scare out the 3rd player. The guy with the other K is now pot commited, and calls, and you likely win a nice pot. In the real hand though, he would've hit a boat on the river, but this really wouldn't have been avoidable even if you raised on the turn. The typical player wouldn't fold his hand at the turn to any bet.

So by playing it slow, you're increasing your risk factor a bit, mostly by letting the guy with the possible draw get a cheap card, but you increase the amount you win greatly. If you raise big on the turn, he probably would put you on (or at least be very worried about you having) a K with a better kicker, and then go into check call mode if the river doesn't help him.

Not that you have to play AK like that. Its more of a style / personal preference thing, and if I'd already made a play like that, maybe I'd raise huge on the turn next time to throw them off. The main point is that you should suspect that you are beat on the turn with K6, and therefore shouldn't be reraising. With AK you should think that you likely have the best hand, and how you choose to try and maximize your profit is up to you.

Second, I'm not sure I understand your statement at the end about that bet on the flop being devestating against a big stack. Could elaborate some for me?

The flop wasn't devestating. The flop was a great flop for your hand. But after he raises another bet on the turn, you should be putting him on a K, and a likely higher kicker since yours is so low. If the guy had a bigger stack, your raise could've been "devestating", as it could've either made you feel pot commited with a hand that you basically know is beat if your called (or at very best is a split), or it would've just been a waste of chips if you then fold to a big bet on the river. Plus, you're letting him know that you have a K as well, so if he has a great kicker or a boat by the river, he really should make you pay. The best you can hope for by the river is a split, because you're just playing your K. The river 9 is your last kicker.

Originally Posted by aneratergos

So, if I'm catching your point here -- FOLD MIDDLE PAIRS TO OVERCARDS

If they're betting anything more than the minimum, for sure. And if its multiple overcards in a multiway pot, forget about it. Check fold automatically. If its one overcard and its heads up, you have to read what you think its likely they have, and fold to any big bet.

And its not just with middle pairs, its with any pocket pairs. This one just a bit ago hurt, but it was very obvious I was beat.
CARDSON
PokerStars Game #608966377: Tournament #2325659, Hold'em No Limit - Level III
(25/50) - 2004/08/11 - 20:07:32 (ET)
Table '2325659 2' Seat #8 is the button
Seat 4: DEHIII (1725 in chips)
Seat 5: Totality (2135 in chips)
Seat 6: wannaplay918 (1890 in chips)
Seat 7: Sailorstve (1225 in chips)
Seat 8: michael1123 (1680 in chips)
Seat 9: meeman (2070 in chips)
Seat 1: KeithinTO (1645 in chips)
Seat 3: yumphla (1130 in chips)
meeman: posts small blind 25
KeithinTO: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to michael1123 [Kc Kh]
yumphla: folds
DEHIII: folds
Totality: raises 50 to 100
wannaplay918: folds
Sailorstve: folds
michael1123: calls 100 - Don't try this at home. Very risky. I was hoping for blinds to possibly come in, no ace on the flop, preflop raiser bluffs / bets top pair big, and then I'd make my move and they'd have no way to put me on a high pocket pair. Not how I normally play KK, but I was mixing it up, and I wouldn't have done this if I wasn't on the button. I was basically trying to take the guy's stack if he hit top pair with an ace kicker.

meeman: folds
KeithinTO: folds
*** FLOP *** [Ts 2s Ah]
Totality: checks
michael1123: bets 200
Totality: raises 200 to 400
michael1123: folds
Totality collected 675 from pot
Totality: doesn't show hand

After he checked, I had to try and take it down. A check would've induced any hand to likely bet big on the turn, which I couldn't have called, but couldn't know if he had an ace either. The fact that he check min raised me after preflop raising, makes it even more obvious he had a huge hand. It looks like AA, TT, or AT. AK maybe, but that'd be a strange way to play AK. Plus, I called his preflop raise and bet the pot when he checks. He has to put me on an ace and think he has me beat from the way he played the flop, as that min raise is very unlikely to fold any ace that'd call preflop.

Hello aneratergos, welcome to FTR. It stands for fold to raise if you didn't know. As far as your game is concerned, you got plenty other people here who you can drill for tips and advices. I'm the least qualified member to be giving out advices at FTR. And uh, just so that you know, i've been hearing that Toasty and Humphrind are actually one person acting as two
Good luck everyday man, later.

Originally Posted by aneratergos

So, if I'm catching your point here -- FOLD MIDDLE PAIRS TO OVERCARDS

Yes, because you're better off with second pair vs top pair (5 outs) than an underpair vs top pair (2 outs.) Hence, any situation where you would fold second pair you certainly should fold an underpair.

Yeah, great point there Fnord. For the same reasons I also prefer to call with middle pair (on the flop) over 2nd pair (pocket pair over middle pair) when the opponent may have top pair, but is betting it weakly.

This thread has helped me a great deal. I'm about to post another hand in a different thread that I'd like your input on also.


Thanks again