hard pill to swallow

seems like its hard to admit that the poker gods have it in for you on the days where it seems like EVERYONE and their grandmother is playing back at you (even the rocks start in on you). everything you do gets raised or check-raised or floated. when really its the fact that they hit their card and are only betting it. or, the maniac woke up with a real hand.

very trying on the patience to fold...fold...fold...after taking initiative.

anyway, the question that pops up after seeing it quite a lot so far today is:

you raise pf with JcTc and the button. semi-maniacal player in blinds calls with a 400bb stack (you have 100). flop comes Kh Jh 7c. he bets, you raise 3.5X (he donk bets 50+%), and he insta-shoves over you.

coming from a semi-maniacal player oop (who doesnt appear to be completely stupid) isnt this either a REAL hand, or a big draw most times?

question two...what is your calling range? because i know you dont call with 2nd pair w/o a MUCH better read.

Fold. I would probably want two pair or OESFD

Play on button and CO only.
If that fails, play on B only.

If you won't have cards, you may at least have position.



Also, what's the frequency of people playing back at you, compared to what they showed down? Did they have the nuts or close every single time? Are you sitting at the most loose-aggro tables you can find? Are they teh luckboxes?

To the question: that flop isn't JcTc friendly.
Flatcall flop to see if he 2ndbarrels. Fold as played.

fold. Either you're way behind a made hand, or you're facing a flush-oesd combo draw. Neither option is pretty. Also, a player with 400bb has had to get them somehow, may not be as crazy as first appears...

oh, i definitely folded that one. it was just one of those days. i went bouncing from table to table and couldnt find one with a good seat compared to the fishies. i got jobbed by the river twice, and pushed off a couple others where i could be ahead, but there was way too much aggression to be very sure.

that one i posted, though, had me scratching my head. i thought it a combodraw, and didnt want to jerk around on the flop with it. if we had made it passively to the turn, i would call that one off. but, he could have easily had JJJ or 777. thats how they get paid.

i was more interested in the ranges strong enough to call with. and i figured two pair would be the minimum...which is why its a good play for a LAG.

like this...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($10.05)
MP ($1.55)
Button ($9.35)
SB ($5)
BB ($6.85)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q, Q.
Hero raises to $0.3, 1 fold, Button calls $0.30, SB calls $0.25, 1 fold.

Flop: ($1) 3, J, T (3 players)
SB bets $0.4, Hero raises to $1.3, Button folds, SB raises to $4.7, Hero calls $3.40.

Turn: ($10.40) A (2 players)

River: ($10.40) 3 (2 players)

Final Pot: $10.40

Results in white below:
SB has Js Ad (two pair, aces and jacks).
Hero has Qs Qc (two pair, queens and threes).
Outcome: SB wins $10.40.

Originally Posted by Chopper

like this...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($10.05)
MP ($1.55)
Button ($9.35)
SB ($5)
BB ($6.85)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q, Q.
Hero raises to $0.3, 1 fold, Button calls $0.30, SB calls $0.25, 1 fold.

Flop: ($1) 3, J, T (3 players)
SB bets $0.4, Hero raises to $1.3, Button folds, SB raises to $4.7, Hero calls $3.40.

Turn: ($10.40) A (2 players)

River: ($10.40) 3 (2 players)

Final Pot: $10.40

Results in white below:
SB has Js Ad (two pair, aces and jacks).
Hero has Qs Qc (two pair, queens and threes).
Outcome: SB wins $10.40.

sucks


ive had 40k hands of this, when you get to 20k give me a bell.

In truth, if you keep making the correct decisions you are making money.

agreed.

hell, ive played 24k since august 1st. and to be honest, i am in a long term funk at 25. seriously, like i've never seen before. i am waiting for my heater that never seems to come. sure, it comes for a session, but nothing sustained. however, the coolers, they tend to keep coming.

granted, theres a ton of donkey play in there, too. i just used to get 5k heaters to "bail me out." those seem to have disappeared.

Originally Posted by Chopper

agreed.

hell, ive played 24k since august 1st. and to be honest, i am in a long term funk at 25. seriously, like i've never seen before. i am waiting for my heater that never seems to come. sure, it comes for a session, but nothing sustained. however, the coolers, they tend to keep coming.

granted, theres a ton of donkey play in there, too. i just used to get 5k heaters to "bail me out." those seem to have disappeared.

welcome to the waiting-for-the-long-run club

you know its funny...

you start playing poker and think, "i can win at this. its not that hard."

your first couple months start off on a heater. higher than life. you find a forum and start giving all sorts of advice over how YOU would play it. people ask, you say, "i am a 22/100 over 1200 hands. i F-ing ROCK!!"

your first cooler comes in. you actually realize that great hands get sucked out on...frequently. you start to realize, "wow, maybe i dont know as much as i thought i did. you mean theres more than one book out there?"

you check your 10k stats in PT, and you find you are still a 11/100. you still think you can KILL the game.

another heater, another cooler. sprinkled in...a lot of posting and reading. but still.......not much THINKING.

you learn how to multi-table...and think you pwn that, too. but, you play 3-4 tables. not 8-12.

you practice your "reads," but realize you are only reading the "monsters under the bed," meaning you can spot the nuts only. but your are convinced you can outread negreanu.

(side bar) you realize you cant even spell negreanu.

anyway, your database builds. you win rate slows, but its still positive. you start to "open up your game."

and think to yourself, "holy crap!! this must be what they mean by variance. or, do i suck all of a sudden?"

more posting, more multi-tabling. maybe you mix in some other games trying to "broaden your horizons."

long story short, this is the evolution of a poker player. you know you arent great, but know you arent poor, either. you know you have a lot to learn, the arrogance has been virtually knocked out of you by now (but not all the way ). you start to become a robot, playing unemotionally...grinding. trying to play only in the best situations, and trying to play more and more off reads. but, all the while still learning about the millions of nuances this game has to offer. I LOVE IT!!

but, we all go through the four phases, most of us only the first two. and, this applies to every new venture in life. for you younger bucks that are in college, remember these forever...if you read this far.

phase one. THE UNCONSCIOUS INCOMPETENT. (you dont know you suck.)

phase two. THE CONSCIOUS INCOMPETENT. (you now know you suck, and start trying to get better.)

phase three. THE CONSCIOUS COMPETENT. (you know you are good, but still keep working. you are better than most by now.)

phase four. THE UNCONSCIOUS COMPETENT. (you have reached truly elite status. dont know if it exists in poker. top 1% of 1%...Tiger Woods/Michael Jordan territory. YOU ARE SO GOOD YOU CANT LOSE IF YOU TRY.)

if you are wanting to enter any career, these are good "phases" to remember. they will help you keep your sanity when you get kicked and built back up again.

that was my Tip of the Month...meant for one or two people that actually read the whole post.

this is how things go chopper...

^LAWL! That's some killer variance.

Originally Posted by grnydrowave2

^LAWL! That's some killer variance.

ya that was my 10nl experience this time around lol. it was pretty gnarly. thank god for rb

thats crazy. and forgive me for saying so, but isnt that a little too much "variance?"

i'm a nit, though. so, if i had a graph like that, i'd be jumping off the nearest bridge about hand 25k or so.

once i suffer the 12 BI downswing, and bounce off my low the second time, only to retest my lowest point, i look for the bridge.

crazy stuff.

Originally Posted by Chopper

thats crazy. and forgive me for saying so, but isnt that a little too much "variance?"

i'm a nit, though. so, if i had a graph like that, i'd be jumping off the nearest bridge about hand 25k or so.

once i suffer the 12 BI downswing, and bounce off my low the second time, only to retest my lowest point, i look for the bridge.

crazy stuff.

the funny thing is i'm a nit also.

If you're learning the game there is no such thing as "too much variance".

Originally Posted by Chopper

thats crazy. and forgive me for saying so, but isnt that a little too much "variance?"

i'm a nit, though. so, if i had a graph like that, i'd be jumping off the nearest bridge about hand 25k or so.

once i suffer the 12 BI downswing, and bounce off my low the second time, only to retest my lowest point, i look for the bridge.

crazy stuff.

I just sufferred an 8 BI downswing @ 25NL. it fucked up my roll. Every single time I got my money in good, yet lost at the turn or river by 1-4 outers.

At stars, so no RB, only a still pending reload bonus.


I just hope I can regain mental fortitude to shrug this off, and keep playing my A-game, and not start chasing flushes.

I seriously hate this fucking game.

Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer

I just sufferred an 8 BI downswing @ 25NL. it fucked up my roll. Every single time I got my money in good, yet lost at the turn or river by 1-4 outers.

At stars, so no RB, only a still pending reload bonus.


I just hope I can regain mental fortitude to shrug this off, and keep playing my A-game, and not start chasing flushes.

I seriously hate this fucking game.

Can I assume you're only playing at stars because you're clearing the bonus?

Yup, pretty much only.
Beautiful thing is, clearing this bonus makes me lose my roll. WTF?


What I need to learn now, is how to not go on tilt after losing stack after stack. How to adhere to strict pf hand selection, and stick to it, even after KK gets cracked by K4s, after AA gets no action 10 times straight, and when it does, its cracked by yet another set, and so on and so on.
I know poker is a longterm game, but how does 1-in-20 on the river hit so often back to back to back? wtf's up with that?


yeah, yeah, , but I'm sure most of you have been through this
bear with me, I may not always sound like it, but I'm such a fucking n00b, having played pokah only since last Christmas or so. Last year November, I had no idea wtf a flush was.
I need to develop a tuff skin for this

/rant

Originally Posted by Chopper

phase two. THE CONSCIOUS INCOMPETENT. (you now know you suck, and start trying to get better.)

sounds like me! phase three seems distant..

Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer

I just sufferred an 8 BI downswing @ 25NL. it fucked up my roll. Every single time I got my money in good, yet lost at the turn or river by 1-4 outers.

that sucks dude. feel for ya... drop to 10? good luck sorting through this - stay playing solid

I think I'd do that.
My roll was at one point about $640, today its around $440. I could always do some sng's, strictly to build the roll.


Looks like you'll beat me to 1k! nice going man!




I think the problem lies in my emotions. I try to supress them, but they always get the best of me, even though I never show emotions at the table or while playing (because I used to play Dominoes, and am still very good at it).
They affect my judgement. And this can be fatal in NL.

I know it should always be about odds, outs and ranges, but after losing big pots in which I was in a mathematically dominant position, my emotions take over for the next few hands, with disastrous results (hey, i got an acehigh fd, villan's fd's always hit, why shouldn't mine too? hey I got AKs/KK/QQ, he can't have AA again.. awwwl innnn! etc.)

If I don't dominate this soon, I might as well quit ring, or poker altogether, because I would be the most unprofitable long-term player ever, losing my whole roll in the span of a few hands time and time again. Maybe tourney poker is my calling, after all.

I just got me Zen and the Art of Poker and the Poker Mindset. Maybe these will help kill of the emotions demon. Just gotta go pick 'em up at the post office.



Anyway, sorry for the hijack Choppah. I got to stop doing that.

Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer

What I need to learn now, is how to not go on tilt after losing stack after stack. How to adhere to strict pf hand selection, and stick to it, even after KK gets cracked by K4s, after AA gets no action 10 times straight, and when it does, its cracked by yet another set, and so on and so on.

was there in august, remember? took quite awhile to recover. used to be good at avoiding tilt. but, lately, have suffered some relapses. like tilt-remission or something.

i think it has to do with playing the 10's for so long and getting used to crushing stack after stack w/o much variance on the down side for half the year.

no worries about hijacking. done a bit of that myself, too.

and dominoes? ahhh, a great Caribbean game, mon.

Yeah.

Domino's great in teaching you to put people on a range of possible holdings, and how to "hold them out".
Domino's also great in teaching you to spot tells. This made me very aware as to observe players while playing, while disguising my own tells, helping me net a 5th placing in my first and 'till now only ever live tourney, way back in february.

I want to get in a big buyin live tournament so bad...

Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer

I think I'd do that.
My roll was at one point about $640, today its around $440.

that's ugly, unlucky... I'm playing so ridiculously conservative on the bankroll thing - not counting bonus earnings towards moving up in limits = unlikely to be hitting $25nl until I reach at least 1k. With the 6-max I'm playing i think that's a good thing, rockets are my biggest loser over around 3k hands, twice all-in heads up pre-flop and xxxxx this xxxxxx xxxxx xxxxxx and one other nasty beat.

Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer

in my emotions. I try to supress them,

in poker i think this is bad. Suppressed emotions are still floating around = time for TILT.... I get grumpy on badbeats sometimes, note it and enjoy it. Playing cash, if I'm still pissed an orbit later I'm logging off. If it's an MTT or SnG i'm probably already gone an orbit later...

my first 4-figure day in the negative sucked

daven, your roll got pretty freaking huge for only playing 10nl. good job man. lots of bonuses or are you just killing it?

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

daven, your roll got pretty freaking huge for only playing 10nl. good job man. lots of bonuses or are you just killing it?

I'm a whore and have had time on my hands...
it's all described in my ops thread! loads of bonuses, a couple of good reward freerolls (I seem to run ok in MTTs), most of the cash profit was from $5NL, I only recently left that behind. $10NL I'm playing 6-max and it's a different beast... tomorrow I start seven days of daily $500 freerolls with about 100 runners in each. I like that kind of overlay, and I like that most everyone playing them is likely to suck