Group 7 Play

Hi, I'm new to the board and haven't seen anything on this.

so i've read the strategies on the main page, but they really only go up to group 6.

so i'm wondering about A9,K9, 98s, 87s, 76s

thanks,

drakestar

You can play those hands successfully once you've gained a dependant reading ability. When you can put your opponent on two cards on the flop or earlier, you can play these hands with some success but there's no way to play them properly everytime. Just look for a spot where you've got good implied odds and a good read and run with them.

-'rilla

Group 7 hands are thin +EV very read dependant.

You can win money with those if played in the right situation. But if you play them poorly you stand a chance to lose a good amount of $

For someone just starting out I'd muck them preflop.

I agree with Mike. Nearly everyone starts out playing too loose, and then they tighten up and do much better. Its funny though, that at least for me, as I've improved more, I've loosened up again on starting hand requirements, and regularly will play hands like 87s, J9s, A2s, JTo, etc., depending on position, if I can see the flop cheaply or am in a good position to be aggressive with them.

But its not recommended for beginners at all, because you have to be extremely willing to let go of top pairs and such when any aggression is shown by others, and you need to pick the right spots to be aggressive yourself, and not just be calling postflop, hoping to hit your draws.

I don't think you necessarily need a good reading ability to play those suited connectors. If you can get in cheaply with them they're almost always worth a play in my opinion. You just have to be ready to muck them if the flop doesn't give you any draws.

The other hands mentioned are definitely worth mucking.

Yes, but if you pair up 8s into a king high flop with 89s you've gotta be able to put your opponent on 2 cards so he doesn't buy you out of a pot that was yours.

-'rilla

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Yes, but if you pair up 8s into a king high flop with 89s you've gotta be able to put your opponent on 2 cards so he doesn't buy you out of a pot that was yours.

-'rilla

very good point, and besides that i also like to play those hands short handed. For example, i have A2s and limp in, the flop comes out A79, now in a full table game the chances of someone having that ace are very high, but in a shorth handed game you probably have TP, so i guess its worth the risk in a short handed game. I usually muck those hands unless im in the button.


-anto

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I somewhat agree with Rippy that many hands, if you play them at all, should be raised pre-flop. I still think implied odds hands like baby pairs and suited connectors should be limped unless there's nobody (or perhaps only one) limping in front of you and you're in late position. The value of these hands change dramatically from pre-flop to post-flop and it's nice to get in there cheaply with these. Stuff like AJo though should be a raise or a muck but very rarely a limp pre-flop IMO.

Originally Posted by DrNoChance

I somewhat agree with Rippy that many hands, if you play them at all, should be raised pre-flop. I still think implied odds hands like baby pairs and suited connectors should be limped unless there's nobody (or perhaps only one) limping in front of you and you're in late position. The value of these hands change dramatically from pre-flop to post-flop and it's nice to get in there cheaply with these. Stuff like AJo though should be a raise or a muck but very rarely a limp pre-flop IMO.

i agree with DRNoChance 100%, theres no reason to raise 5XBB with a low pocket pair, youll ennd up loosing money in the long run, i think.. so its better to just limp in with these hand unless youre in late position where a raise can be justified


-anto

Originally Posted by elanto

Originally Posted by DrNoChance

I somewhat agree with Rippy that many hands, if you play them at all, should be raised pre-flop. I still think implied odds hands like baby pairs and suited connectors should be limped unless there's nobody (or perhaps only one) limping in front of you and you're in late position. The value of these hands change dramatically from pre-flop to post-flop and it's nice to get in there cheaply with these. Stuff like AJo though should be a raise or a muck but very rarely a limp pre-flop IMO.

i agree with DRNoChance 100%, theres no reason to raise 5XBB with a low pocket pair, youll ennd up loosing money in the long run, i think.. so its better to just limp in with these hand unless youre in late position where a raise can be justified


-anto

Are you losing in the long run? I think you weed out the field and against any unpaired hand, you've got them 2/3 of the time on the flop and you've got the advantage anytime you both hit big hands usually. I don't think you'll be losing especially if you're a good LAgg player.

-'rilla

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Are you losing in the long run? I think you weed out the field and against any unpaired hand, you've got them 2/3 of the time on the flop and you've got the advantage anytime you both hit big hands usually. I don't think you'll be losing especially if you're a good LAgg player.

-'rilla

You might not be losing in the long run, but I think it's greater +EV to limp 44 on the button vs. multiple limpers than to raise it.

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I agree with the Doctor. The number of limpers and position certainly should be taken into consideration. With a lot of limpers in front of you, limping along is the best play, adding to the number of players seeing the flop and possibly hitting two pair or whatever against your set if you hit one.

Another bonus is that if you just limp in and someone behind you raises with a big pair, they're probably still pricing you in, laying you all kinds of implied odds, especially if some of the limpers come in too. If you raise, of course then they'll be more likely to make a huge reraise with a monster hand, not allowing you to see a flop and throwing away what you put in the pot.

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Originally Posted by Ripptyde

suited connectors and baby pairs are two completely different beasts

I've pumped all in with 66 before against healthy raises before me only to find myself up against A/Q or K/J on a call

once again I reiterate...

play your opponents stack and your position

pocket deuces are a stronger hand than A/K....provided you are heads up

limping with baby pairs is fine, but I'll go up against K/J, Q/10, A/9 etc all day long on an all in

naturally you have to assess your own stack, but putting your opponent on a decision with a baby pair...its still a coinflip against overcards

look at your own stack and make your pre flop accordingly

Now that I can agree with, the raise must be justified, it all depends on your position, stack size and your opp stack size


-anto

A bet is the best option, we all know stacksize, position and your read on other players plays a major roll in calculating the size of the bet.

I don't play many ring games, but another thing you must consider is the game type....the NL ring game is different than a NL tournament.

I play NL tournements mostly and consider 44 a pretty week hand at a full table with a few limpers in....5BB is too aggressive for my tournement style. I would rather limp/make or call a smaller raise to save some chips for the next hand when I don't make my set

Anyway, I think in addition to all the variables that we normally discuss that NL Ring and NL tournement should be another when we are asking/giving advice.

Do any of you play differently in a ring than a tournament? I'm sure you do.

My two cents.

Hmmm...

I think Tyson had intended to eventually finish his series of essays with his Group 7 thoughts. Perhaps now would be a good time.


Oh... Ty?

thanks for all the replies!

i've been playing pretty tight which pretty much has just left the Group 7 cards out of play, unless i'm in a late position with lots of folders.

but...thanks again...

Drakestar

Let's see how often you would need to double up in order to make raising 5x BB with a baby pocket pair a profitable play.

Let's assume you double up (win 100 big blinds) x % of the time, and lose 5BB the other (100-x) percent of the time.

(100-x)*(-5) + (x)*100 = 0 (break even)

x = 4.76

So you would have to double up 4.76% of the time for this play to be profitable. I guess thats could be possible. But I'm not considering the possiblity of losing your entire stack if the other guy flops/draws a better hand.

There's nothing terribly wrong with raising a small PP from LP after three limpers if you're confident they'll just call. You're getting close to your odds of hitting a set (1:5), and you might have the option of taking a free card if you're last to act. You can also represent an A if one flops or an overpair.

What I don't like about it is that a smart EP opponent will use your tendencies to raise from LP against you by limp-reraising, and you'll have to fold.