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giving a free card on the turn.. stupid or not?

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  1. #1

    Default giving a free card on the turn.. stupid or not?

    I just took a few days off poker to analyze my game and fix some minor leaks. One of them is that I'm bit too agressive on the turn and river with hands like TPTK.

    So I did a little bit of thinking and would like to know what you guys think. I'll post a fictive hand and I'd appreciate some comments.

    ** I suppose a full table of NL200 where I have no specific read on villain but PAHUD shows that he is a typical tight passive player. Low VP$IP, low PFR, good %win, etc.. (Note that I would not apply my strategy at NL25 were it is full of fish)

    Hand:

    You're on the button and you get: AcAs
    EP limps, MP limps, You raise to 8$, Both blinds folds, Both limpers call.

    Flop: Kh 9h 5d (Pot is now 27$)

    EP checks, MP checks, You Bet 25$, EP folds, MP calls.

    Turn: 3c (Pot is now 77$)

    MP checks. What do you do?

    Usually, I would throw a 50$ bet here to get rid of drawing hands but I'm not sure this is the best move (it might be at NL25)

    My new strategy would be to check this turn with the intention of calling any river bet if the river is not a heart. Here's my thinking:

    There's 3 type of hands that fits the betting pattern and what I know from my opponent:

    1- Set
    2- KQ, KJ (maybe AK but I'd go with KQ). He would have called what appear to be a c-bet from me.
    3- Flush draw with Ah and maybe a middle pair too.

    Now I want to figure out if I'm better off leading with a 50$ bet or just checking.

    1- If he has a set and I bet 50$, he will most likely min-raise it to 100$. I know have a tough decision to push or fold.
    If he has a set and I check, he'll likely bet the river but since I showed weakness, he'll probably make a smaller bet (30$) that I will call.
    So if he has a set, checking is the best move as it would cut my losses.

    2- If he has KQ, KJ and I bet 50$, he will most likely fold since he is tight and I don't expect a tight player to loose a buyin with KQ and KJ. So betting does not appear to be a good move.
    If he has KQ, KJ and I check, he'll probably put me on AQ, QQ, JJ, TT. Chances are that he'll make a small bet on the river (or just checks it). If he bets, I call and I win. If he checks, I bet 30$ and he'll probably call thinking I'm just trying to buy the pot.. So checking the turn appears to be the best move again.

    3- If he has a flush draw, off course checking the turn is not the best move. The turn is the last chance I have to take some of his money. If the river is a heart, I'll have to fold if he bets big. If the river is a rag, then I'll throw a bet but it likely won't be called. The odds that he catches his flush on the river are 1:5 so I can expect to still win the pot 5 times out of 6 even by giving a free card.

    Overall, it appears to me that checking the turn is the best move (especially if I consider that the flush draw is the less likely holding here). Agree or not? I hate giving a free card but it seems like the logical move. As I mentionned earlier, I want to avoid losing big pots when I have AA-KK-TPTK. I realised that at NL200, a lot of the players are just sitting there waiting to crack someone aces.

    And while we're at it, let's suppose the same hand but you're in EP this time and you're 25$ bet on the flop gets called by the button.. You need to act first on the turn, what is your move?
  2. #2
    I bet the turn a lot of the time here, usually just 1/2 pot as a pure value bet trying to squeeze more out of Kx and the draws, same on the river. If you know that the only hand a very passive player would check raise is a set, why pay it off?

    If you check the turn you have induced a bluff so I'd have to call a reasonable bet on the river regardless of what falls. I may use this line against more aggressive opponents who are more likely to bluff busted draws etc. If its checked a second time I'd bet full pot on the river, try to make it look like I'm buying the pot.
  3. #3
    Miffed22001's Avatar
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    No free cards period.
    Find the fold botton if ou think you're beat, eg reraised
    Free cards can end up with you outdrawn, put in sticky situations where opp bets top pair hard and you think you're beat and it allows you to be bluffable. Plus you gotta lose some ev. Dont give em when you have a made hand, unless you have opp more than one card behind in which case there is the option.
  4. #4
    Interesting hand. Personally I don't mind giving a free card here on the turn, but it's not something I make a habit of doing. I'm assuming that at 200NL the typical opponent is not a total donk and probably will not stack off with less than TPTK. It is true that he could have a heart draw, but from my experience, opponents will call your c-bets or bets with made hands a large percentage of the time. I think if villian has a hand like top pair or a set, then checking the turn is clearly the right choice, because like I said before I'm assuming the villian isn't going to just call off everything with a hand like KQ or AK. If you keep dropping the hammer, he's going to find a fold. With a set you want to minimize the amount you put into the pot, and this will probably lead to calling a small value bet on the river, which is not that bad of a loss. If he has a flush draw then clearly betting close to pot size is the best option, but keep in mind that if he is indeed drawing to the flush, he is still a significant dog with one card to come, and the third flush card will be non-disguised, so you can get away from your hand if you really feel like he hit the draw. If the turn goes check-check, and he checks river, I would pot it or 3/4 pot. I think this line gets a call from KQ/AK a lot of times. At lower stakes like 25NL and such I 3/4 pot the turn and push a clean river and expect to get paid off most of the time.

    One last thing. I think that this is a great example of why position is so important and how you can use it to your advantage. You're taking a small risk by giving a free card so you can either minimize your losses or maximize your gains. Also, this is good for table image since it lets opponents know that if you c-bet the flop and check the turn it doesn't mean you missed. The line finky suggested where you 1/2 pot or maybe even less on the turn and bet 1/2 pot on the river is good too. I think the main thing is to not be predictable so that your opponents can't get a read on you.

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