Getting stacked with trips.

I'd like to get our experts' advice on this issue.

I find (probably like most of you), that in ring games I win the most in the following (or similar hands).

I have 33. Villain raises pf, I call. Flop comes 3AA, villain has AK or AQ, and we play for stacks.

This hand also plays out the same if flop is 3AK and villain has AK.


I have realized something though. The money I make off of these hands is absolutely meaningless, if I can't make these laydowns when the tables are turned. I think this is why my bb/100 is so meager. At 25nl over about 9000 hands, I am 9bb/100 (in the midst of a downer, however).

Could some of our vets posts some hand histories where they made laydowns with Top two pair or trips in the face of a boat or straight, and give me your thought process behind what made you decide to fold?

I bet if I could just make prudent laydowns in 30% of all of these situations that occur, I could double my winrate.

Reads are important when determining if you are up against a set. When the "tables are turned" I'm suspicous of a set, but not paranoid enough to lay down my hand in both examples you give without an extremely strong read. I think a better example would be:
You have KK and the flop is 59T and you meet major resistance from somebody who limp/called preflop.

9bb/100 is good by the way.

you can only begin to make those sorts of laydowns at 100nl+ maybe not even that low as not a great ddeal of players will raise you on that sort of board without the nutz.
More common is some pain-in-the-ass like me cold calling your AQ raise with AK and the case aces hit the flop. Now thats annoying.

Originally Posted by r8ed

When the "tables are turned" I'm suspicous of a set, but not paranoid enough to lay down my hand in both examples you give without an extremely strong read.

So in that case when ever I am the guy with 33 and I take someones stack, I can't even be excited about that win, or even consider it to be profit at all, since in the ultralongterm that same situation will happen to me in reverse, right?

Originally Posted by r8ed

9bb/100 is good by the way.

Ya I know but still. I have heard of lotsa people running 15-20 at .10/.25, and I know I can do it too.

I can't think of ANYONE on this board or any other who has run at 20bb/100+ at 25NL over 25,000+ hands. Anyone got such stats?

I am king of fucking laydowns, but only because EVERY time I make a set of aces I know I'm going to get busted, so I fold. Pre-flop.

Originally Posted by ilikeaces86

Nl 100 on Party
16531 hands played
16.47 VP
Amount Won 16,418.84
BB/100 hands 24.83
Won $ at showdown 53.5 %

NL 50 on Party
18929 hands played
16.66 VP
Amount Won 7,599.86
BB/100 hands 20.07
Won $ at showdown 53.61%

Nl 25 on Party
9,666 hands played
14.93 VP
Amount Won 2,524.20
BB/100 hands 26.11
Won $ at showdown 56.82%
Move up??? Any areas I need to improve??

you dont want to 'get better'
you want to 'move up' then youll 'get better' anyway

Originally Posted by r8ed

When the "tables are turned" I'm suspicous of a set, but not paranoid enough to lay down my hand in both examples you give without an extremely strong read. I think a better example would be:
You have KK and the flop is 59T and you meet major resistance from somebody who limp/called preflop.

What makes your example any easier to read for the set, btw?

A QQ or JJ would give you the same resistance in your example.

Haha aces is a freak.

On $25/$50NL I always play my flopped top trips top kicker for stack. Always. There are too many suckers that play their AT (or even Ax) here for stacks. The bonus is punishing draws (and redraw against them) and fake all-in bluffs.

Top two pair (AK on AK2) board I'm ready to put my 100BB stack here too, of course if turn&river gets ugly it may be a laydown time . But on flop I bet it and reraise/push against resistance, especially heads-up. Laying down flopped top two or top trips on flop is just ridiculous, it's one of the best flops for slick, if not that flop then why even bother to build the pot with AK? Unless a guy is super-nit but even then I'd pay him off with 100BB.

Aces was playing at oldschool blinds too, much easier decisions then .

Originally Posted by Triptan3s

Aces was playing at oldschool blinds too, much easier decisions then .

Yeah, TPTK was the money printer...On 100BB+ it's just a pretty and vulnerable hand that can beat only other pairs and draws and requires more skilled postflop play.

Now NL seems to be game of sets, straights and occasional top two pair.

Originally Posted by Triptan3s

Aces was playing at oldschool blinds too, much easier decisions then .

What do you mean old school blinds?

By the way could some of you post some good laydown hands and give me your thought process?

Originally Posted by Renton

Originally Posted by Triptan3s

Aces was playing at oldschool blinds too, much easier decisions then .

What do you mean old school blinds?

50 BB stacks where 25nl was 12.50

you mean 25nl used to have .25/.50 on blinds?

ilikeaces86 an exception. It's good to aim high, but I wouldn't stay at 25NL when bankrolled for higher just to prove you can match him, because you can't. Regardless of the blind structure, he would have no problem duplicating those stats today. I ran over 15BB/100 for a while, but over time it drifted toward 10BB/100. By that time I moved up due to bankroll. BB/hr is more important to me.

My KK example is more relevant because I pointed out that somebody limp/called and then got aggressive on a non-threatening flop and I only have 2 outs. Even then you have to know your oppoent to lay it down.

Originally Posted by r8ed

ilikeaces86 an exception. It's good to aim high, but I wouldn't stay at 25NL when bankrolled for higher just to prove you can match him, because you can't.

Thats bull. He hadn't even been playing that long when he posted these stats. Ilikeaces just had the right system for 25nl. He wasn't clairvoyant or supernatural.

I think its very hindering to say something can't be done. Besides, I wasn't aiming for aces's 25bb/100 stat. I'd be happy with 15. And the reason I am aiming that high, is because both of my attempts at NL50 have failed somewhat miserably. Either I am not good enough (probably) or I have just hit negative variance both times I have tried.

I want to pulverize the 25NL so the 50Nl won't be such a rude awakening.

Originally Posted by Renton

Ilikeaces just had the right system for 25nl.

...and 50NL and 100NL and 200NL....

Not trying to hinder you. I hope you do accomplish what you strive for and that's a good method to use to figure out when you are ready for the next level. You took the extreme example, but even 15BB+ isn't overly common, so that number shouldn't hold you back - that's all I was getting at.

Originally Posted by Renton

I want to pulverize the 25NL so the 50Nl won't be such a rude awakening.

Same here buddy.

Recently I haven't won anything @ 25NL, but rather dropped a couple buy-ins. I've even played a lot of 10NL just to get my confidence back up. I'm thinking of taking Rondavu's advice in just hammering the streets with huge bets when I have at least TPTK, because he says there are enough bad players to make this a good strategy.

I can't wait to move upto 50NL, but I'm not killing 25NL like I killed 10NL. I feel like I'm just average here right now.

No way I make thoe laydowns you talked about in your first post. Those situations are just way too exotic to worry too much. When I lose there, I drop a stack. When I win in the same situation, I make a stack. Its break even.

I suggest you look to more common situations then that for your leak.

I used to belike what you're describing when I played 50nl. I just didn't feel 'comfortable' paying there. After I played about 15k hands though I was pwning it like it was 25nl. You'll get there.

Heres the best I can do lol.
No reads, sorry David Sklansky.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hand #214842551 at table: Table TH 254
Started: Thu Feb 23 23:18:23 2006

josans is at seat 1 with 106.50
Benblanco is at seat 2 with 171.03
Rouble is at seat 4 with 97.84
DRObbb is at seat 5 with 22.50
All-in4Fun is at seat 6 with 98.90
mr_rossi is at seat 7 with 99.33
daxma is at seat 8 with 343.95
LagerDCFC is at seat 9 with 98.50
achilles13 is at seat 10 with 76.45

All-in4Fun posts the large blind 1.00
DRObbb posts the small blind 0.50

All-in4Fun: 7c, 2c

Pre-flop:

mr_rossi: Fold
daxma: Call 1.00
LagerDCFC: Fold
achilles13: Fold
josans: Call 1.00
Benblanco: Fold
Rouble: Call 1.00
DRObbb: Call 1.00
All-in4Fun: Check

Flop (Board: 6d, 2d, 2h):

DRObbb: Bet 1.00
All-in4Fun: Raise 6.00
daxma: Fold
josans: Fold
Rouble: Call 6.00
DRObbb: Call 6.00

Turn (Board: 6d, 2d, 2h, 9h):

DRObbb: Check
All-in4Fun: Bet 15.00
Rouble: Call 15.00
DRObbb: Call 15.00

River (Board: 6d, 2d, 2h, 9h, 4s):

DRObbb: Check
All-in4Fun: Check
Rouble: Bet 75.84
DRObbb: All in
All-in4Fun: Fold

Originally Posted by Renton

I have realized something though. The money I make off of these hands is absolutely meaningless, if I can't make these laydowns when the tables are turned.

It's meaningful because:

o My opponents often try to run slow play lines against me. Seeing me splash in small pots might have an impact on this. Hence, they tend to have a more difficult time getting all of the money in the pot and give me cheap shots at sucking out then getting them to pay off for the max on the river. One ah-ha moment I had is when I realized how big of an edge I think I have on the river in these games. People make absurd calls for lots of money and the only way to exploit this is to get there.

o By virutue of hand selection, selective weak laydowns on early streets and position I put myself in these spots less than the worse players, but more often than the tightest (generally more readable) players. I'm happy with this balance.

Originally Posted by Renton

Thats bull. He hadn't even been playing that long when he posted these stats. Ilikeaces just had the right system for 25nl. He wasn't clairvoyant or supernatural.

You are grossly under-estimating Aces' natural talent for poker and the impact a few laydowns or stolen pots can have on an NLHE win-rate. Running good helps too

and the impact a few laydowns or stolen pots

...and big ballsy river calls of bluffs with only a top pair hand. It's not just a "system".

[/quote]

HU you can't fold because you're more likely to be up against trips with a weaker kicker than you are to be against a full house. However with 3 players in the hand ( competent players ) you can do some card counting. On a AA3 board 3 players can't possibly have trip aces, so if the action gets heavy you have to slow down with trips. If you don't fill out on the turn ( and you're not already commited ) you can fold on the turn with only one card left to hit your kicker or pair the turn card. I've folded trip aces on the turn a few times, last one was a little different, the guy had a flush. I folded recently on the turn in a 3 way pot, no flush or straight showing. AA57 other 2 players raising and reraising, figured if one of them has an ace and i have an ace the other guy has to have 55 or 77. Sure eneugh the guy had 77. I let the other ace pay him off.