Getting a bigger bankroll

I am a college student and consider myself a decent poker player. Usually when I put my money in, I am ahead. I have played at Party, Ultimate, Paradise, and now at Pokerstars and I am tired of rookies/fish not folding to reraises with their bottom pair when it's obvious of top pair/kicker, getting called all-ins by k-4 suited and i have a-k (they get runner runner flush). I am not saying I am a pro by all means but I think I do fairly well and I just want better competition. Should I start investing more into poker and play at the higher limits? I play at the .10/.25 and deposit in 50 but I am sure I could put in 150 or so and maybe play at the .25/.50....question being, will i find less fish? People love them but they always get lucky and win and give it back to someone else. Should i just invest more so I quit getting so unlucky?

http://www.flopturnriver.com/Bankrol...ement-101.html

Originally Posted by bef99hwk

I am a college student and consider myself a decent poker player. Usually when I put my money in, I am ahead. I have played at Party, Ultimate, Paradise, and now at Pokerstars and I am tired of rookies/fish not folding to reraises with their bottom pair when it's obvious of top pair/kicker, getting called all-ins by k-4 suited and i have a-k (they get runner runner flush). I am not saying I am a pro by all means but I think I do fairly well and I just want better competition. Should I start investing more into poker and play at the higher limits? I play at the .10/.25 and deposit in 50 but I am sure I could put in 150 or so and maybe play at the .25/.50....question being, will i find less fish? People love them but they always get lucky and win and give it back to someone else. Should i just invest more so I quit getting so unlucky?

if you can't beat bad players, how are you going to beat good players?

if you can't beat the bad players how are you going to beat the better players!?! you are saying that you want your opponet to fold their K4 when you have AK?


You have 2 buy ins for 25nl. The recomended BR is 20 buy-ins. You should be playing the .01/.02 blind tables with your current BR.


i wouldn't be surprised if you were actually more of a fish then you think you are.

if you cant beat the fish...you wont be able to beat the TAGS who are going to grind you for every penny that u got .....for 25nl (.10/.25) you need more than 50 as your bankroll...more like 10-20 buyins ....read the essay...

when want a bigger br i just place it all on blackjack. It does't take very long to build it up. say you bet 100, after 8 hands you'll have over 20k!!!!! Its such a good way to build aroll and its oh so easy.

Even if you learn to beat better players, you will need to know how to beat the bad players, even at higher stakes. Learn to beat the bad players first, because even at the higher stakes, it will be that knowledge of how to beat the bad players that will make most of your profit.

At any stakes, the money you make is by beating those worse than you.

Originally Posted by bef99hwk

People love them but they always get lucky and win

False.

Originally Posted by bef99hwk

I am a college student and consider myself a decent poker player. Usually when I put my money in, I am ahead. I have played at Party, Ultimate, Paradise, and now at Pokerstars and I am tired of rookies/fish not folding to reraises with their bottom pair when it's obvious of top pair/kicker, getting called all-ins by k-4 suited and i have a-k (they get runner runner flush). I am not saying I am a pro by all means but I think I do fairly well and I just want better competition. Should I start investing more into poker and play at the higher limits? I play at the .10/.25 and deposit in 50 but I am sure I could put in 150 or so and maybe play at the .25/.50....question being, will i find less fish? People love them but they always get lucky and win and give it back to someone else. Should i just invest more so I quit getting so unlucky?

You arent understanding this game. Poker is a game of chance. If you get your money in with the best of it you will lose quite alot of the time. BUT you will win ALOT more often than that.
If you are a beating the stakes you are playing at then it wont be a long time before you have the bankroll to move up in stakes and take on better players.
If you arent beating the stakes you play at then realise this one thing.
ITS YOUR FAULT.
Dont try and blame long term losing on fish sucking out. That just isnt how it works. If you ever want to be playing higher stakes you need to realise that if you are a losing player it is because you have some glaring holes in your game that you need to fix.
It could be that the fish get lucky with K4 and hit 2 pair when you have AK but do you pay them off afterwards??

Follow my plan: Make your poker bankroll $50 (or $100 if you can afford it) and go to pokerstars. Play the $2 (or $5) buyin game there until you ARE winning. Play which ever game you have at least 20 buyins for. Read the bankroll management thread thats been linked to above and Read and post hands on FTR.
And I promise you this. If you ever get to the low-medium stakes games where everyones a rock you will start to wish people were calling allins with K4.

Goodluck and get going

I'm risk averse. I think a good bankroll is 2000 big blinds, which is $500 for the 25nl game. At $50, you're only good for 5NL (.01/.02). For sit & go, I suggest 35 buyins.

Set a stop-loss. If you lose 20 percent of your roll, drop a level until you win it back.

For tourney, deposit what you can afford to lose, because you may be waiting a while before you make a profit.

BTW, more "bad beats" are caused by going all-in with top pair than any other hand. Don't do it. Not only are you putting your stack at risk, you send a signal to better players that you are a fish waiting to filleted.

You can't control what the fish do, you can only control your own actions. With that in mind, accept that you're not a very good player right now. Instead of complaining about the fish, worry about becoming a better player. I doubt you're getting your money in ahead as often as you think you are. Are you catching top pair on the flop with your AK, making decent-sized bets on the flop and turn, and calling a huge river raise when the river is a third club? If so, that's not a bad beat. Maybe if you posted some of the big pots you played, people could give you better advice. But if you can't beat fish you shouldn't definitely play .05/.10 or lower until you learn how to.

Originally Posted by Yakuman

BTW, more "bad beats" are caused by going all-in with top pair than any other hand. Don't do it. Not only are you putting your stack at risk, you send a signal to better players that you are a fish waiting to filleted.

Having everyone else think you're a fish is one of the best things that can happen to you at the table.

Mcatdog, the median winning hand is two pair. Top pair is not two pair. I want people to go all-in with TP so I can hit them with my sets.

Thanks for the advice...that's what I am on this forum for!

"Should i just invest more so I quit getting so unlucky?"

I love this phrase

well after a beat and I asked why they played like they did, or what their thought process was, some say "it was only a quarter, or it was only .75 (which was the pot at the time). I just get frustrated betting 3/4 to pot amount and having bottom pair call all the way and hit two pair on the river, when they have no draws or overcards. I just dont' get how some ppl play like they do. Like if they actually thought about why they were calling they would fold.

Originally Posted by bef99hwk

I just get frustrated betting 3/4 to pot amount and having bottom pair call all the way and hit two pair on the river, when they have no draws or overcards. I just dont' get how some ppl play like they do. Like if they actually thought about why they were calling they would fold.

Again you have a flawed understanding of where your money is going to come from if you are actually a winning player. Every time your opponent makes a mistake, you win money. It might not be shipped to you on that pot where they suck out, but more often than not, they won't hit two pair and your TPTK is good.

I will take a million hands of TPTK vs underpair with unders calling all the way down. I will win money over the LONG TERM because my opponent was a dumbass and made a million mistakes.

Not that it already hasn't been said twenty times in this thread, but yes you need a bigger bankroll. This of it this way; you want to have extra buyins to get back in so when you take a beat (which just happens, you have to be able to absorb it and get back in the game), you can reload and win your money back (and then some)! If you recognize 100% that there is a total chip spewing maniac at your table and you don't have any money to play with him, then you're losing money by not playing. Does that make sense?

bef99hwk,

I share your frustration. I started playing NL hold em six months ago and play most every day for several hours. I have read about seven books on no limits plus countless posts. I am just now at a level where I consistently beat these micor limit players.

What you said is true about these players' logic being essentially "what the heck, its only a quarter." The problem is that you will face players at bigger games that will say "What the heck, it's only $100."

The key to beating these loose gambling types is to tighten up and play much fewer hands in later position.

I did the following and suggest that you do the same. Pull all your money out offline and invest it in Poker Academy Pro. It is very expensive ($120.00) but it is not a game per se. It is an analysis tool. It keeps track of every hand you play and helps you identify your weaknesses. Play for ninety days. Then play the online version against other players. You will be playing for play money but it is structured in such a way that the players do not bluff off the play money as they do on Party or Stars. Play this for ninety more days and save up $500.00. Deposit it into Pokerstars or wherever you play and hit the $25 games. BTW, i have no affiliation with PokerPro or any site. I just use the product and I have improved immensely.

Remember, you are playing poker. Oftentimes, the bad beats you suffer come from playing your ego, when you do not have the cards or the position.

The best story I can give you was that I was playing a six way $25 NL on Stars. I was winning a dollar or so per round. Then a total jerk came in and started going all in almost every hand preflop trying to steal the blinds. In times past, I would have jumped in to "teach him a lesson" but with crappy cards. He would have drawn out on me and I would have suffered a "bad beat" (Really my fault for letting him get to me.) So I waited, and had to lay down some starting hands that, had he not been there, I would have gotten to play. Lay down after lay down, etc. I kept trying to out maneuver him, but had to back off because I did not have the cards or position or either. Finally, I drew a KQs on the button. He raised, but did not go all in. I reraised a small amount and he called. The flop came A-J-T rainbow and he went all in. I called. turn and river were rags and I had his stack, all of it. He left. It left such an impression with the other players, that I stole pots for the next hour and left with a profit of $33.67 for the session.

You have to play each hand as if it is the only one that you will ever play. It does not matter what happened two hands ago. All that matters is making the very best decision you can with these cards, these opponents and in this position. period. Play your cards, not your ego.

I have played enough at this level to "know" that I can sit and play and over e period of time show a profit.

As to buying in for a larger amount and playing higher stakes, I've been there done that and got the T-Shirt. The better method is building your bankroll by playing your way up. It is kind of like paying your dues and it is for your own protection. You start with a minimum bankroll and earn your way to the next level. If your bankroll grows than you are probably good enough to advance. If it does not grow, then you need to keep practicing and reading and learning until it does. Your bankroll will tell you when to move up.

Incidentally, I know it gets frustrating to sit there and suffer all that grief for a few dollars. But you need to realize that poker is a grind and you can actually make decent money for a college student, even at this level. If you buy in for $25 and try for a 20% profit per session and play three sessions per night, that is a win of $15 per might tiimes 20 nights per month is theoretically$300.00. It will pay for food. Even if this overeggagerates th profit potential, remember that you are letting the bankroll grow and pretty soon you'll be making even better money. Nevertheless, you will be suprised at what a consistent 5% win will do to your bankroll over six months. Six months is a very short time in the big scheme of things.

One other piece of advice, Doyle Brunsen Supersystem 2. Read it and read it and read it. It changed my life.

A winning poker player consistently puts their $ in the pot when they have the best hand. You won't always win every hand, but you will be profitable in the long run. Keep doing what you are doing and you will be fine. We all go through times like that and while it is frustrating to lose to a suckout, you must realize that it is those players that pay your bills. If you prematurely move to the higher levels, you will put your $ in the pot with the 2nd best hand and lose your stack AND everyone will fold when you have the best hand. That's much worse than where you are today.

Hi dere,

I'm hopefully a familiar face on this board - I'm not an absolute beginner but I'm still learning every day and I think my experiences, over 70,000 hands or so, might be useful to other beginners.

I've just done my sums, and until last Thursday, when I had a positive session, I was on an ELEVEN BUYIN UNINTERRUPTED DOWNSWING. Now, I'm sure it wasn't all bad luck; I hadn't played for a while due to holidays and was rusty, plus there's the tilt effect to think about - it's hard to lose buyin after buyin without being negatively affected in some way.

The thing is, I'm a consistently winning player - only 6BB/100 over my entire poker career but at least that's in the black. Fortunately I was playing (well) within my BR at a stake I was comfortable at - I didn't chase my losses, I didn't move up stakes to make it back - and as a result was able to turn it round and make back 5 of those buyins over the weekend.

Anyway, just thought I'd share.

For anyone who's interested, here's my graph at Crypto (where I play most of my ring) since I started:

It was only touched on a bit here but as far as BR management, You need to do this because poker is a game of odds. Against a random hand AA is only a 75% favourite. that means 25% of the time you lose your hand and 75% of the time you win your hand with "AA". That means you need to prepare to lose some and REBUY in to get your money back. There is 1326 combinations of hands meaning 1326 hands you get AA 6 % of the time (1326 x .45%= 6%=79)and lose 20 times. if those 20 times come a couple times in a row you lose all your money and think "i'm moving up to a higher buy in where AA will win". I got news for ya at 50NL, 100NL, and 10000NL the odds are the same. You will lose with AA x number of times out of 100, and that's why fish play out of their bankroll and lose, NOT because of how good they play AA. Oh and by the way if you play 132600 hands AA loses 2000 times. At 25NL x 2000 that's $500 . Now that's just an easy explanation the actual odds are very different this is over simplified for understanding. Someone with real math can give you the exact numbers if they wish.

I think your sums are off, TJ - you receive AA (and every other PP) once every 221 hands on average, and you lose roughly a quarter of these.

During the downswing mentioned above AA made me -2BB/100. I'm not even going to mention what happened with QQ...

I think one of my leaks at the lower limits is I try advanced strategies sometimes that backfire. For instance,
Dealt to bef99hwk [9s 9c]
bef99hwk: raises $0.20 to $0.30
Rad Rumble: folds
heinrich0815: folds
red spider-g: folds
KBonfire23: calls $0.20
*** FLOP *** [6h Ad Kd]
KBonfire23: bets $0.20
bef99hwk: raises $0.40 to $0.60
KBonfire23: calls $0.40
*** TURN *** [6h Ad Kd] [6c]
KBonfire23: bets $0.50
bef99hwk: calls $0.50
*** RIVER *** [6h Ad Kd 6c] [Ac]
KBonfire23: bets $0.50
bef99hwk: calls $0.50
*** SHOW DOWN ***
KBonfire23: shows [Kh Js] (two pair, Aces and Kings)
bef99hwk: mucks hand
KBonfire23 collected $3.70 from pot
bef99hwk said, "?"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $3.85 | Rake $0.15
Board [6h Ad Kd 6c Ac]
Seat 1: red spider-g (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: KBonfire23 (big blind) showed [Kh Js] and won ($3.70) with two pair, Aces and Kings
Seat 4: bef99hwk mucked [9s 9c]

Figured if I reraised, I would be put on acex or a-k maybe, and if got played back at I would fold. I prolly should have reinforced it on the turn but I was hoping for the flop fold. Here's another history:

okerStars Game #5666714190: Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2006/07/24 - 15:16:18 (ET)
Table 'Campanula' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: red spider-g ($7.45 in chips)
Seat 3: fili ($9.30 in chips)
Seat 4: bef99hwk ($5.40 in chips)
Seat 5: 527712 ($3.15 in chips)
Seat 6: heinrich0815 ($2.45 in chips)
heinrich0815: posts small blind $0.05
red spider-g: posts big blind $0.10
KBonfire23: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to bef99hwk [8d Ah]
fili: folds
bef99hwk: raises $0.20 to $0.30
527712: folds
heinrich0815: calls $0.25
red spider-g: calls $0.20
*** FLOP *** [As Ks 4h]
heinrich0815: checks
red spider-g: checks
bef99hwk: bets $0.75
heinrich0815: calls $0.75
red spider-g: folds
*** TURN *** [As Ks 4h] [8s]
heinrich0815: bets $1.30
bef99hwk said, "if you have flush nh"
bef99hwk: raises $1.30 to $2.60
heinrich0815: calls $0.10 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [As Ks 4h 8s] [Qs]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
heinrich0815: shows [Th Jh] (a straight, Ten to Ace)
bef99hwk: mucks hand

He says he tried to bluff on the turn....wtf?

SERIOUSLY WHAT AM I DOING WRONG?

PokerStars Game #5667096268: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02) - 2006/07/24 - 15:57:13 (ET)
Table 'Normannia' 6-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: Witschi ($4.21 in chips)
Seat 2: franzinail2 ($1.50 in chips)
Seat 3: Ol Bullet ($2.31 in chips)
Seat 4: bef99hwk ($0.86 in chips)
Seat 5: quantum ($1.35 in chips)
Seat 6: Blamedgreg ($2.25 in chips)
Witschi: posts small blind $0.01
franzinail2: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to bef99hwk [Jd Kd]
Ol Bullet: calls $0.02
bef99hwk: raises $0.08 to $0.10
quantum: folds
Blamedgreg: folds
Witschi: calls $0.09
franzinail2: calls $0.08
Ol Bullet: calls $0.08
*** FLOP *** [Qc Kh 8h]
Witschi: bets $0.02
franzinail2: calls $0.02
Ol Bullet: calls $0.02
bef99hwk: raises $0.18 to $0.20
Witschi: folds
franzinail2: calls $0.18
Ol Bullet: folds
*** TURN *** [Qc Kh 8h] [Ts]
franzinail2: bets $0.50
bef99hwk: raises $0.06 to $0.56 and is all-in
franzinail2: calls $0.06
*** RIVER *** [Qc Kh 8h Ts] [7h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
franzinail2: shows [Qd 7c] (two pair, Queens and Sevens)
bef99hwk: mucks hand

Previous hand:
PokerStars Game #5667082197: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02) - 2006/07/24 - 15:55:44 (ET)
Table 'Normannia' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: Witschi ($4.25 in chips)
Seat 3: Ol Bullet ($1.83 in chips)
Seat 4: bef99hwk ($1.26 in chips)
Seat 5: quantum ($1.37 in chips)
Seat 6: Blamedgreg ($2.27 in chips)
Blamedgreg: posts small blind $0.01
Witschi: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to bef99hwk [6h 7h]
Ol Bullet: calls $0.02
bef99hwk: calls $0.02
quantum: calls $0.02
Blamedgreg: calls $0.01
Witschi: checks
*** FLOP *** [7d 6c 5h]
Blamedgreg: checks
Witschi: bets $0.02
Ol Bullet: calls $0.02
bef99hwk: raises $0.08 to $0.10
quantum: folds
Blamedgreg: folds
Witschi: folds
Ol Bullet: calls $0.08
*** TURN *** [7d 6c 5h] [4s]
franzinail2 joins the table at seat #2
Ol Bullet: bets $0.08
bef99hwk: calls $0.08
*** RIVER *** [7d 6c 5h 4s] [8d]
Ol Bullet: bets $0.20
bef99hwk: calls $0.20
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Ol Bullet: shows [Ad 9s] (a straight, Five to Nine)
bef99hwk: mucks hand
Ol Bullet collected $0.88 from pot
bef99hwk said, "oh geeze"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $0.88 | Rake $0
Board [7d 6c 5h 4s 8d]
Seat 1: Witschi (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 3: Ol Bullet showed [Ad 9s] and won ($0.88) with a straight, Five to Nine
Seat 4: bef99hwk mucked [6h 7h]

Guy said I gave him 3:1 odds on the draw but isn't an inside straight 11:1?

Originally Posted by bef99hwk

I think one of my leaks at the lower limits is I try advanced strategies sometimes that backfire. For instance,
Dealt to bef99hwk [9s 9c]
bef99hwk: raises $0.20 to $0.30
Rad Rumble: folds
heinrich0815: folds
red spider-g: folds
KBonfire23: calls $0.20
*** FLOP *** [6h Ad Kd]
KBonfire23: bets $0.20
bef99hwk: raises $0.40 to $0.60
KBonfire23: calls $0.40
*** TURN *** [6h Ad Kd] [6c]
KBonfire23: bets $0.50
bef99hwk: calls $0.50
*** RIVER *** [6h Ad Kd 6c] [Ac]
KBonfire23: bets $0.50
bef99hwk: calls $0.50
*** SHOW DOWN ***
KBonfire23: shows [Kh Js] (two pair, Aces and Kings)
bef99hwk: mucks hand
KBonfire23 collected $3.70 from pot
bef99hwk said, "?"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $3.85 | Rake $0.15
Board [6h Ad Kd 6c Ac]
Seat 1: red spider-g (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: KBonfire23 (big blind) showed [Kh Js] and won ($3.70) with two pair, Aces and Kings
Seat 4: bef99hwk mucked [9s 9c]

Some of the hands you posted are just straight bad beats. You can't do anything about bad beats. Sometimes someone will get their money in with the worst of it and end up sucking out. While the suckout is not exactly what you want, they did make a mistake in the hand and you do want that. You want people calling you with worse hands even though they occasionally make a good hand because that is how you make money. In the above hand you can just fold on the flop. People in that game are not thinking about what possible hands that you have so repping the ace doesn't work.

Gabe gives me free BR donations. Only way I don't go busto.

I'll take a stab at it:

On the first hand 99fold the turn, you have an under pair to a AK flop. After he called your flop raise and led the turn your beat.

and if got played back at I would fold

2nd hand A8o, after the turn you called his all in but 1BB bet after the board is flushed with TPWK. Fold the turn bet.

3rd hand you started the hand with 50BB reload, your not going to scare a guy with 2 pair on a straight board with a 3BB reraise into that pot. You basically called his 2 pair bet that put you all in with TPMK.

On the last hand, 6h7h, you got 2 pair on the flop made a pot sised bet that he called. 2/3 you will win this is a $ making play don't stop. But if you think that the straight is a possibillity reraise the turn to see what he has. make him pay to draw that river card. Why are you calling and calling turn and river bets. AND STOP PLAYING WITH 1/2 BUY INS. Youy won't scare anybody with 4 or 5 BB on the river in your stack with 30BB and 40BB pots.

This ain't pretty:

I expected a much different response LOL, Stay tuned.

AviatorNo1: Great Post & Welcome!

bef99hwk: Stop betting so much money on such marginal hands. If you want your raises to start getting some respect, show down monster hands. By showing down 99 on an AA66K board you are going to continue to get called by anyone who has anything.

I like, most people in the beginners forum, build up a decent bankroll from nothing (well, $75 free cash from Party) by grinding out at the $5/$10 NL tables. I can assure you that the higher limits are far more challenging.

Good luck

Originally Posted by Warpe

This ain't pretty:

i don't think this photo is any good
please try again

I'm waiting for someone to recognise her then I'll be striked or chastised greatly. Half the regulars have seen this pic. Someone should recognise her. Maybe the community?

damn it!!! TJ!!!!! that is my mom

Originally Posted by flomo

damn it!!! TJ!!!!! that is my mom

no ur moma has no booooooobs

Some good advice in this thread, was a fun read.

Originally Posted by bef99hwk

...consider myself a decent poker player.

like every beginner does

i went through the same struggle and then strarted reading books and lots of great advices here.

result: my selfrating as a poker player decreased from "decent" (if not to say "hell, i´m great") to "at least i´m doing better than last months"

the major things i had to learn in the beginning:

- it´s not about beating the best players, but to make the most cash
- it´s a long term game
- you´re never that good


if you need to build a BR big enough for $25NL try playing some sngs, in a tourney ppl are mostly not that suicidal. there it´s not a quarter or whatever, but all or nothing for them.[/list]

I am starting to think online is a bunch of crap. I don't know how you ppl are making money....I might have to go to the 19 hands and hope for a set. Last night I counted 6 out of 8 times preflop hands were dominated (a-k vs a-j, kq vs k-10) and they won. I lost my AA to A6 when a guy bluffed me all in on the flop after I raised 4xBB preflop from the SB. the flop was a 8-10-2 rainbow and he needed running cards...ended up getting running flush cards. Then later, I hit a flush on the flop and guy goes all in with with his set and hits quads. I know he had outs for a full house but hitting quads? I am sick of bad beats. I bust out of so many tournies from runner runner it's not funny. I also know not to get mad over coin flips but when you have a 90% chance of winning aren't you supposed to be winning that 9 times out of 10 instead of only 4 out of the 10? I can play tight as hell and still not get anything. Sorry for the rant...online just pisses me off.

Poker pisses you off. If online poker pisses you off specifically, look for the reasons why. Let's start off by acknowledging it isn't rigged; but that doesn't mean it's suitable for everyone.

First of all, it's quick. For people used to live games, it's MUCH quicker, especially if you multitable. You only have 20-30 seconds to make any decision, so it's easy to make the wrong one (in particular because, if the decision is call or fold, and you haven't worked out which is right after 30 secs, the answer is probably fold - it'll save you money in any case, more often than not).

In addition, people playing online tend to eschew taking too long to bet, worried that they're giving away tells. This can be true, but basically, if you don't need to rush, don't rush.

And finally, on this subject, the speed of onlien poker makes bad beats come round far more often. As your brain tends to pick up on these "unfair" instances more than anything else, you notice them more than you notice the wins, so psychologically it can feel like it happens more than it should. I promise you, it doesn't.

Secondly, tells are very different. If you're used to playing live and you have built up an instinctive understandign of how people behave, you'll prbably feel like you're playing blindfolded when you move to online.

Thirdly, multitabling is great, and mostly profitable, but there's no doubt it detracts from some areas of your game. Poor players can simply get overwhelmed; more advanced players will be sacrificing reads (betting patterns etc.) in order to play more hands at a hopefully positive BB/100. But you have to be aware that you are, in all probability, giving up some EV by doing it, and this can turn a slightly winning player into a slightly losing player.

Fourthly, there are a world of distractions when you're playing online, from FTR to messenger to watching the TV to writing a thesis. All of these will have a negative impact on playing.

Fifthly, there will be lots of fish who'd never think of going to a casino but are happy to throw away a few bucks at an online site. Note: this is largely a very good thing, BUT it will also increase the amount of suckouts you suffer. You have to ignore this - if you're a decent player you will make more money on the hands where they play badly and lose than the hands they'll play badly and win.

Sixthly, there's no-one around to keep you in line when you play on your own on a computer. You can be roaring drunk, you can be angry, but you're unaccountable - no-one can tell your anonymous, faceless persona that they're playing like a chump (or if they do, via the chatbox, you'll just get more tilted). This is in combination with the fact that playing online, the lack of tactility - cards in your hand, chips on the table, banknotes in your wallet - takes away from the reality of the situation. It's easier to lose $100 when you're not physicially peeling them off your roll.

Anyway - this was pretty tangential to your problem, but it's all relevant stuff, I think. Poker is all about awareness, of your opponents, of conditions, but most of all about yourself. You need to be on top of your psychological condition at all times - the moment you lose control of your own emotions and actions, even slightly, you are no longer going to be able to play optimal poker.

I think one of my leaks at the lower limits is I try advanced strategies sometimes that backfire. For instance,
Dealt to bef99hwk [9s 9c]
bef99hwk: raises $0.20 to $0.30
Rad Rumble: folds
heinrich0815: folds
red spider-g: folds
KBonfire23: calls $0.20
*** FLOP *** [6h Ad Kd]
KBonfire23: bets $0.20
bef99hwk: raises $0.40 to $0.60
KBonfire23: calls $0.40
*** TURN *** [6h Ad Kd] [6c]
KBonfire23: bets $0.50
bef99hwk: calls $0.50
*** RIVER *** [6h Ad Kd 6c] [Ac]
KBonfire23: bets $0.50
bef99hwk: calls $0.50
*** SHOW DOWN ***
KBonfire23: shows [Kh Js] (two pair, Aces and Kings)
bef99hwk: mucks hand
KBonfire23 collected $3.70 from pot
bef99hwk said, "?"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $3.85 | Rake $0.15
Board [6h Ad Kd 6c Ac]
Seat 1: red spider-g (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: KBonfire23 (big blind) showed [Kh Js] and won ($3.70) with two pair, Aces and Kings
Seat 4: bef99hwk mucked [9s 9c]

I dunno wut advanced strategies you are using but wen u have a pp like 99 and there is an ace and k on flop u shud just fold. I understand you tried to take a stab at it on the flop (u shud have raised more here) but wen he calls ur re-raise, let it go to his turn bet.

Also, I dunno y u saying u hate the fish at 25NL. I love them and for every time they give me a bad beat I beat them a number of times due to their stupidity. Its great when the call pf raises with junk because most of the time they wont connect and when they do u gotta move on and make a note that the player is a fish. These are the types of players u shud WANT to play with... not hate.

Forget playing micro limits. Two hands i got called after a preflop raise of 6xBB on .05/.10 with k-2 and a q-5. They call with anything and say they are playing for pennies and it doesn't matter. Guy reraised to .40 and then another guy reraises for 5 bucks all in, obvious A-A from the way he played, and gets called by a k-5 and gets two paired. Micro limits are crap.

Yeah, but the other 9 times out of ten that happens AA will be swimming in money!!!

Tight solid poker beats these knuckleheads. Trust me....

If you can't destroy the 1c/2c tables, you do not understand poker.

Seriously, get that through your skull.

"Conventional" poker play, like what you'd read in a book, does not work well. You actually have to learn, from scratch, how to beat this kind of player. This sort of analysis will help you no matter what limits you play.

For myself, I started last year with $50 playing 1c/2cNL. It took me a month of solid play to bring that up to $100. I've cashed out since then (ended up with a nice mortgage payment), but I got the itch to start playing again last Thursday, so I plopped $20 in there, and after 3 days of play, I have $70.

I learned how to destroy those tables, and it shows. Now as I see it, you have three options:
1) Get over it and learn how to play poker. Patient play, lots of analysis - not fun, but eventual profit.
2) Play at a stake where your ham-fisted plays sometimes work. More fun, less profit.
3) Quit

i would never play anything less than 25nl because 10 nl plays alot like play money ....if you set mine at the right tables at this level(most 10nl FR are optimal for set mining) ..you should make a good profit ....but from looking at your hand histories you still have alot to learn ...and by alot ..i mean ALOT..

Ton of great info here guys....very inspiring. Im currently breaking even (barely) on the lowest micro limits and and at times feel like maybe online poker isnt for me...Reading this thread gives me the confidence to keep truckin' and eventually I will be ready to move up. Hearing the stories of "been there, done that" is good stuff...Thanks!

not folding to reraises with their bottom pair when it's obvious of top pair/kicker

Code:

Board: Ad 9h 4d 
Dead:  

        	equity (%)  	win (%)	tie (%) 
Hand  1:	82.4242 %  	82.42% 	00.00%      { AcKd }
Hand  2:	17.5758 %  	17.58% 	00.00%      { 8s4s }

getting called all-ins by k-4 suited and i have a-k

Code:

Board: 
Dead:  

        	equity (%)  	win (%)	tie (%) 
Hand  1:	71.6700 %  	71.06% 	00.61%      { AcKd }
Hand  2:	28.3300 %  	27.72% 	00.61%      { Ks4s }

This is how you get a bigger bankroll, not why.

bump

Originally Posted by bef99hwk

I am tired of rookies/fish not folding to reraises with their bottom pair when it's obvious of top pair/kicker, getting called all-ins by k-4 suited and i have a-k (they get runner runner flush).

I will never tire of these players... um, don't try higher limits until you can crush the lower ones. If you do decide to move up in limits, please post your screen aliases here.

but I think I do fairly well

are you overall winning or losing? That will give you a true answer to your statement here (i.e. have you deposited more than you have withdrawn)

By the way, what's your party alias? I can see what stats I have on you if you've been playing lower limits there recently...

Originally Posted by AviatorNo1

bef99hwk,
Pull all your money out offline and invest it in Poker Academy Pro.

Don't do this

Originally Posted by bef99hwk

I think one of my leaks at the lower limits is I try advanced strategies sometimes that backfire.

ok. Hand 1 shows that your game is still not strong. I imagine villain recognised how you play and knew he was going to be eating your chips once you check-called (wtf?!?!?) the turn.
Hand2) You re-raised all-in with top pair no kicker and a flush draw that just completed. WTF

Originally Posted by bef99hwk

..I might have to go to the 19 hands

sounds like a very, very good idea after looking at the hands you have posted. Play full-ring, super tight-aggressive.

Ok... I'm gonna throw my 2 cents in here 'cuase I feel your pain, know your pain... the only difference between u and me is I never for a second considered myself a good player....

So, a couple of comments....

1) Absolutely true. I don't give a flying sh!t how good you think you are. If you can't beat the smaller stakes, u need to get better. So read, learn, post, re-read, re-learn, post again, learn some more, crack your sh!t straight up dinky until u can consistently beat these stakes. Then move to the next. Poker's like sales. I don't care how "good" you say you are. Your numbers will tell the story...
2) Don't waste a penny on anything but Poker Tracker which, BTW, you can get for free if you finagle the right site. And that's just so u got an extra learning tool. Otherwise, between the books and the guys on this site u got everything u need for as far up as I've gone. Which ain't very far... but at least to $25NL and I'm sure beyond...
3) I've got 55,000 1/2 limit games under my belt, and it took me another 30,000 micro-stakes NL games to figure out 10NL. I've bugged these guys to death with dumb-@ss questions (which they've answered every one...) and I just cleared 8K hands at $10NL clearing 9BB/100 WITHOUT bonus or rakeback. Check out the videos.... BigSpenda's are dope for our limits... I can't explain how these dudes are willing to answer the same freakin questions over and over... but they do... and you aren't finding another site that u can pay for that's gonna give you better guidance...

So that's my two cents.... I finally figure some light bulbs have gone off and I'm showing some results. Another 50K hands and maybe I'll dabble in $25NL.... or maybe not... either way, I know I'll learn a sh!t pot in the process.

Best of luck

Nice bump Ash

TLDR

if you dont bet it all on red then you suck. Otherwise learn to play, its not hard.

good luck sarbox, i like your post.


keep asking questions, but don't reading anything that i write(worthlesss)