FPP points and bankroll management

Ok, my bankroll is around $650 and I have 11,000+ fpp points. I'm over 2k fpp shy of buying in directly to tomorrow's Sunday Million, so my best shot seems to be a 5400 fpp ten seater sng turbo where 4 people win tickets, I can afford two shots at this.

My question is simple... is this poor bankroll management? Should I use my points for smaller buy in games, treating them like actual cash, or is it reasonable to use them for a shot at the big time like this?

fpps are rake back, use them accordingly. if you recieved $176 and your BR was ~$826 would you play the mil?

Originally Posted by bikes

fpps are rake back, use them accordingly. if you recieved $176 and your BR was ~$826 would you play the mil?

No. But then even if I win a ticket for a dollar or two (I'm running in a couple of 55c rebuys right now), proper bankroll management says I shouldn't use the ticket I win for the mil, instead I should cash it in for tourney $$ and play lots of smaller games.

I'm torn, to be honest. I really want to play tomorrow, but I'm not willing to invest any serious cash because I'm not sufficiently rolled and my income isn't great. Sats are my only hope.

just save em for 4ks and grind your ass off @ cash

even if u sat in you still shouldnt play. just play the sunday storm instead.

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

just save em for 4ks and grind your ass off @ cash

or buy the $350 and use it to move up and get to nova and 4ks sooner.

Originally Posted by bikes

even if u sat in you still shouldnt play. just play the sunday storm instead.

^

I guess I hope I win a ticket that doesn't allow me to unregister then!

I'm not winning at 10nl, so I won't step up yet, even if I could technically roll myself for 25nl. My profits come from mtts, which is why I'm so keen to play tomorrow. I think I stand a reasonable chance of cashing.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

l. My profits come from mtts, which is why I'm so keen to play tomorrow. I think I stand a reasonable chance of cashing.

poker doesnt work like this otherwise everyone good would almost always cash the WSOP ME.

the risk is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the reward esp if your income is tight, your poker skill not outstanding and the tbh the reward unless you go very very very deep is minimal

I was careful to use the term "reasonable", ie I consider the liklihood to be better than the probability, but I take your point. I accept even if I do end up playing somehow, I probably won't cash, but the format does suit my game more than the Storm, I like big stacks and long blinds, it allows me to play tighter for longer.

I failed in the 55c games, predictably. They were insane, I had the chip lead at one point early on in one of them but obv that doesn't mean shit in a game like that. I lost most of my stack with AK against a whole heap of junk hands, then quadrupled up with T7o on the bb when I was forced to defend. Skill is not a factor!

All I got left now is crazy cheap fpp games, where I can't unregister even if I win a ticket. I'm prepared to gamble around a thousand of my points I guess, the risk there is well worth the potential reward. I see the 5400 fpp games as less of a gamble in terms of skill vs luck factor, but with much more risk taking into account the value of that many points. I doubt I'll take that risk tbh, those points can buy me into so many more games.

Good luck to anyone in the Mil tomorrow.

I think the satellites to the Sunday Storm are excellent value. I have played hundreds of them and get rakeback at better than Supernova levels.

sounds like ongabonga wants someone to help him justify his desire to play the sunday mill.


I say go for it bud! BRM is for nits! Rakeback isn't real money! etc.


glad I could help!

You're wrong as it happens, dozer. I guess I wanted to see what people think about how to use fpp points, whether you people consider it real money or not. I got my answer, now I'll decide if I take the advice I've been given, which I probably will.

Still wanna play it. It's not often I can play in a game of this size, seems a better chance of making big money than playing the fucking lottery.

FPPs are fake money and should always be considered as such. If you took FPPs to a bank they would not be considered real money.

How can it be real money if it's online?

(lulz)

Originally Posted by OngBonga

I'm not winning at 10nl,......

Have you ever tried ladbrokes poker? 10nl has many many 54/32 etc etc

Originally Posted by OngBonga

Still wanna play it. It's not often I can play in a game of this size, seems a better chance of making big money than playing the fucking lottery.

yeah, really sounds like I was wrong

Originally Posted by d0zer

sounds like ongabonga wants someone to help him justify his desire to play the sunday mill.

This is where you're wrong, dozer. I don't need anybody to help me justify the decisions I make, I make my own choices. I'm seeking opinions, not justification,

My real friends are suggesting I go for it. If I were seeking justification, I'd be in by now. I started this thread because I wanted balanced opinions, from people who understand poker, not just friends who just want to see me succeed.

Celtic, might look into that site, gonna start bonus whoring soon methinks.

Your 'real' friends? As in your IRL friends who have no qualifications for making sound poker decisions?

Originally Posted by OngBonga

I'm torn, to be honest. I really want to play tomorrow, but I'm not willing to invest any serious cash because I'm not sufficiently rolled and my income isn't great. Sats are my only hope.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

I'm not winning at 10nl, so I won't step up yet, even if I could technically roll myself for 25nl. My profits come from mtts, which is why I'm so keen to play tomorrow. I think I stand a reasonable chance of cashing.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

Still wanna play it. It's not often I can play in a game of this size, seems a better chance of making big money than playing the fucking lottery.

mmmmmmhmmmmmmmm

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

Your 'real' friends? As in your IRL friends who have no qualifications for making sound poker decisions?

Yeah he just wants to balance their worthwhile opinions with ftr's so he can make an informed decision, and then he'll just do whatever the fuck he wants to anyway cuz he makes his own choices.

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

Your 'real' friends? As in your IRL friends who have no qualifications for making sound poker decisions?

Precisely.

Originally Posted by d0zer

Yeah he just wants to balance their worthwhile opinions with ftr's so he can make an informed decision, and then he'll just do whatever the fuck he wants to anyway cuz he makes his own choices.

Haha even more precise.

WWSD


















What Would Slevin Do???

YES Jyms, YES.

lol

wp jyms. I thought I smelled the ghost of slevin in this thread...

Now that the mil is over, I wanted to comment that these decisions are not as clear cut as everyone is making out.

In terms of an "expectation of money" and the power of your bank roll to help you to earn more money, they are right. Playing the million under-rolled, even if you use FPPs or some other rakeback scheme to fund it, is unwise.

However, there are two things to take into account.

1. The reward for playing in the million was two fold for you. Firstly, the chance of winning such a big game or even cashing (well obviously that's a factor). But secondly, the experience and buzz of being part of such a big tournament. These two things combine to give you a utility of the reward of playing. Although the amount you win is uncertain, the experience is guaranteed, so the risk/reward ratio (as a fellow poster termed it) is not as large as they make out (for you).

2. You were not investing a portion of your bankroll to fund it.

Sure you COULD use FPPs to help top up the bankroll or you could treat them like real rakeback and buy things with them or take the cash won with them out. Think of it this way. You started a bank roll for grinding up, and someone gives you $215. Do you add it to the poker roll or do you consider it as separate money for you to spend on entertainment (or even less trivial things like rent etc).

The advice you got was somewhat one sided and was correct from a "maximising your expectation of money earned" perspective. However, decisions are about maximising your expected utility, not money. This is why it is so crucial not to play games under-rolled (because if the money means more to you than it should* the advice on poker sites and in books about ideal play is wrong for you. More specifically, playing with the correct bank roll makes your utility for money the same as expected money, which is why, when you do it, you can "play correctly").

The tricky thing of course, is working out if your wanting to play the million for the experience, plus the expected monetary gain is worth using your money (however it was earned) to pay for it. Nobody can tell you that.

They can tell you that on pure expected money it's not worth it, and they're right.

*I define "should" to mean that your utility for money is linear (which I explain in the post "poker is all mathematical" from the beginners digest).

you used a lot of words to say "yaaaaaa, gambol is fun", and "rakeback isn't part of your bankroll".

Originally Posted by d0zer

you used a lot of words to say "yaaaaaa, gambol is fun", and "rakeback isn't part of your bankroll".

Actually I used a lot of words to say "sometimes gambling is the mathematically correct thing to do from a purely decision theoretic perspective" and "rakeback doesn't have to be part of your bankroll, nor does any of the other money you somehow earn, win or find in your life"

I figured just saying "mathematically correct" without justification wouldn't cut it Mr Mod.

it's hard to talk about "mathematical correctness", when you're talking about things like "experience and buzz", and the "utility" that arises from that. That's all subjective and difficult or impossible to quantify so while in theory you have a point, in practice it's not very cut & dry and is extremely subject to subjective biases that most people aren't introspective enough to identify.

This reminds me of people who don't have much money, and unexpectedly get a chunk of change from somewhere and because it was unexpected, they piss it away on something fun, justifying it in basically the same way you did (that the intangible "experience value" is worth it). They just use far less pedantic language to do so. The money could have been used more intelligently to improve their situation in a more meaningful long-term way, but they justify its waste because the money was unexpected. Unexpected money is no more or less a part of their life roll than any other money.

I mean you could treat half your table profits as not being part of your roll, and spend it on lottery tickets if you want, but it will just slow your progression up the stakes.

I've played the mill without the roll before, convincing myself the gambol was worth the experience. The experience of busting and feeling you just foolishly put a dent in your roll was not worth the $215.

Firstly, you are spot on. It is subjective. It is difficult. Impossible though, I don't buy. Impossible for you or I to comment on someone else, yes. That is the point.

That makes it difficult for us to comment on someone else's utility for doing something. All we can do is specify what the correct money expectation thing is to do, and then, perhaps, not flame them for taking external factors into account in their decision making.

Of course, you could take a somewhat opposite extreme position to your "taking half your table profits out" and spending them on non-poker things, and say that you could always put half your wages (or 100% of your disposable income) every month into your poker roll and accelerate your rise up the stakes very quickly if that is the only goal.

All this said, I have won million seats before and used the T dollars on low-stakes SNGs because I am a bank roll nit.

If you're trying to get me to be nice to ongabonga it's not going to work

so did onga win the sunday million?

Originally Posted by d0zer

it's hard to talk about "mathematical correctness", when you're talking about things like "experience and buzz", and the "utility" that arises from that. That's all subjective and difficult or impossible to quantify so while in theory you have a point, in practice it's not very cut & dry and is extremely subject to subjective biases that most people aren't introspective enough to identify.

It seems to me that you don't really see how gingerwizard's post applies to you so you are ready to simply dismiss the advice out of hand. Which funnily enough is what most here, including yourself, are accusing OngBonga of doing.

Originally Posted by PKKFW

It seems to me that you don't really see how gingerwizard's post applies to you so you are ready to simply dismiss the advice out of hand.

how it applies to me? what are you saying?

I get what he's saying, and I don't deny the theory behind it is sound. The issue I take with it is that it can easily be used to justify a myriad of horrible decisions because of the subjectivity involved in quantifying the non-monetary "utility" of a decision like playing the sunday mill under-rolled.

Originally Posted by daven

so did onga win the sunday million?

Obv not, I didn't play. Instead I went for an $8.80 mtt, went deep and won a massive $37. That was my Sunday.

Originally Posted by d0zer

If you're trying to get me to be nice to ongabonga it's not going to work

deleted comment - I'm sure the mods can still read it.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

deleted comment - I'm sure the mods can still read it.

uhhh,

Originally Posted by d0zer

how it applies to me? what are you saying?

Well you began by dismissing his response as being nothing more than "gambol is fun" etc. Then when he clarifies further you state his advice is not real world relevant as "most people" aren't introspective enough to make use of it.

Now, I'm not suggesting you need or asked for gingerwizards' advice in this thread but your responses to him seem to me to dismiss his advice out of hand and that generally happens when one doesn't see, in the advice, any relevance to one's self.

ginger wasn't giving advice per se, he was speaking theoretically about non-monetary utility. His theory is sound, and it's a decent devil's advocate in the sea of ongabashing. My immediate dismissal of it was a bit of a troll in its tone admittedly, but it was based on my belief that degens like ongabonga or anyone else reading won't benefit from having any ammo to justify poor BRM.

As for your "relevance to ones self" generalization, I've used the "intangible utility" argument to justify a lot of horrible BRM to myself, and watched many people do the same, so it's unfortunately too relevant to me.

If I was giving advice I would have done it before the million. I wanted to wait until afterwards so that it didn't seem I was talking him into it, when, from a BRM perspective only, it was a bad idea.

Originally Posted by d0zer

...my belief that degens like ongabonga or anyone else reading won't benefit from having any ammo to justify poor BRM.

What makes you think I'm a degen? You got me totally wrong, you just follow suit when you see someone hating on me and think that's it's acceptable. It's not, you're a mod, behave like one. I'm not a degen, I'm an idiot with an opinion, that is all. Fuck's sake, I can happily accept people taking the piss out of me, it's usually in good humour, but your tone is not funny, it's pure hate, and you can't let it go. Grow the fuck up, kid.

Fwiw, I have yet to make a poor BR decision. I didn't find a way into the mil on sunday. Have you made a poor BR decision in the past? Don't sit on clouds thinking you're all high and mighty, it's a long fall down.

Ha I lied, I played around 40 hands at $50nl when hunting down a fish, but I doubled off him and left very quickly. Other than that, I'm yet to make a poor BR decision. Sorry for the teeny weeny lie.

I don't hate on you cuz it's popular, I hate on you because you have a history of making arrogant statements you're clearly unqualified to make.

You familiar with the kettle black statement? Do I need a disclaimer on my sig to state that all posts made by me are my opinion? I figured every post by everyone was merely their opinion. I make my posts because I want to improve my poker, not to beat my chest and stand tall, thinking I'm the man. There is no arrogance in me whatsoever, I don't think I'm better than anyone, but then I'm no worse than anyone either, I'm not lower down in the food chain than you are. You, sir, seem to be the one who has a problem with arrogance. You, sir, think you are above me. You are wrong.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

I don't think I'm better than anyone, but then I'm no worse than anyone either

Well that's just simply not true.

Originally Posted by d0zer

Well that's just simply not true.

Depends on your viewpoint. I consider everyone equal unless they're like murderers and stuff. You disagree?

you're not equal to boost in your knowledge of the food service industry.

You're probably not as good at chess as I am, what's your point?

My point is that I'll accept an arrogant attitude from you if chess is the topic of discussion.

Forigve me, I thought this was a poker forum, not a food industry forum. I was participating in a discussion because that's what we do.

apology accepted

Ha, I like what you did there. Look, just let go of the hate, please. Take the piss all you like, but do it because it's funny, not to be an arse.

Originally Posted by d0zer

ginger wasn't giving advice per se, he was speaking theoretically about non-monetary utility. His theory is sound, and it's a decent devil's advocate in the sea of ongabashing. My immediate dismissal of it was a bit of a troll in its tone admittedly, but it was based on my belief that degens like ongabonga or anyone else reading won't benefit from having any ammo to justify poor BRM.

As for your "relevance to ones self" generalization, I've used the "intangible utility" argument to justify a lot of horrible BRM to myself, and watched many people do the same, so it's unfortunately too relevant to me.

Well then it would seem I mistook your tone, as can be easily done on the interwebs forums, so my apologies.

Originally Posted by gingerwizard

If I was giving advice I would have done it before the million. I wanted to wait until afterwards so that it didn't seem I was talking him into it, when, from a BRM perspective only, it was a bad idea.

Perhaps advice was the wrong word.

I was thinking the same thing about Alexa as there was quite a lot of movement. They might have readjusted their adjustment for “technology skew” - or what ever it was….

Originally Posted by Alyssa_Wisconsin

I was thinking the same thing about Alexa as there was quite a lot of movement. They might have readjusted their adjustment for “technology skew” - or what ever it was….

Wisconson nympho - YouTube

jfc theres a 2nd page

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

jfc theres a 2nd page

Is mod, does not change to 100 post per page?

Originally Posted by OngBonga

You familiar with the kettle black statement? Do I need a disclaimer on my sig to state that all posts made by me are my opinion? I figured every post by everyone was merely their opinion. I make my posts because I want to improve my poker, not to beat my chest and stand tall, thinking I'm the man. There is no arrogance in me whatsoever, I don't think I'm better than anyone, but then I'm no worse than anyone either, I'm not lower down in the food chain than you are. You, sir, seem to be the one who has a problem with arrogance. You, sir, think you are above me. You are wrong.

All I could think while reading this was:
"Don't set out to raze all shrines—you'll frighten men. Enshrine mediocrity, and the shrines are razed."

There's a joke about subnormal children here somewhere.

Threadsaver:

Originally Posted by !Luck

Is mod, does not change to 100 post per page?

pointless on ftr, i never read long threads here.

i also rock 50 posts per page

same

Every poker player who internally espouses a tight bankroll management philosophy is omg smrt. Every poker player who verbally espouses a tight bankroll management philosophy on an internet forum IS A SHORT-SIGHTED RIDICULOSO WHO DOESN'T UNDERSTAND WHERE THEIR MOBNIES COME FROM.

Also, hey.

It just comes down to motivation. If you want to play then play. BRM is just a tool designed to help people that want to move up the stakes safely without as much risk or need to deposit. If your into the risk then play. We have to stop thinking that BRM is a rule, it's not, and many people have taken risks in the past that have paid off, me included. Slevin on the other hand was a lost cause, he asked for advice and failed to take it. Ong may deserve some of the comments he gets, I don't know, but playing the mill depends on his goals and what he feels is BRM.

Originally Posted by jyms

Ong may deserve some of the comments he gets, I don't know, but playing the mill depends on his goals and what he feels is BRM.

I don't think I deserve the shit I get, but meh, so long as I'm learning I really don't give a toss, I'm happy. My goal is to make enough money playing poker to sustain a healthy income. I'm some way off that, which is exactly why I come here and post my thoughts, so those better than me can tell me where my logic is flawed. There are a few people here who only wish to massage their egos, who are here to tell everyone how to play poker and be rude to others rather than to improve their own game. I'm slowly learning how to be better at poker, so fuck everyone who jumps on the ongbashing badwagon.

That's why I said I don't know. I don't get the hate and may have missed why. I don't follow a lot of the long discussion threads where debate takes place. I still come to FTR for my chill time, and don't have time or energy for the long debates anymore. Not sure what you may have did, but this threads BRM debate is old and tired.

i think you thoroughly deserve the shit u get.

Originally Posted by bikes

i think you thoroughly deserve the shit u get.

That's because you're an arsehole. I learn from you though, I kinda hope it pisses you off that you're helping me get better. Along with m2m, I respect your opinions more than anyone else in the BC when it comes to poker, but you come across as a miserable tosser. Is it monsoon season?

Mmmm, im kinda with jyms here. Comes down to what you want out of poker. I know some people count on this shit for income, most BCers don't. Some people still play poker for fun. If you spend your feeps on a tourney (which you are unlikly to cash in but whateva, it could happen), you still have your cash roll. It wont bust you. However if you want to buckle down and grind cash or tourneys or whatever, put those feeps to RB and build your roll towards buying yourself into that shit yourself. Either way its your decision and it's what you want. You got the advice of a lot of smart people so figure out what you want.

Originally Posted by jyms

It just comes down to motivation. If you want to play then play. BRM is just a tool designed to help people that want to move up the stakes safely without as much risk or need to deposit. If your into the risk then play. We have to stop thinking that BRM is a rule, it's not, and many people have taken risks in the past that have paid off, me included.

Repped!

I use aggro BRM (10BI for each stake) and move down if I lose 2BI. It's worked fine for me.

Originally Posted by EasyPoker

Repped!

I use aggro BRM (10BI for each stake) and move down if I lose 2BI. It's worked fine for me.

define worked?

Originally Posted by !Luck

define worked?

I mean it's no different than playing with more BI, so long as I'm comfortable with moving down, which I am.

I also haven't gone busto yet. Of course there's still time, but it works on the basis that you get back to 2nl when you have $40, so going totally broke is damn near impossible.

100nl = $1000 - Move down to 50nl @ $800
50nl = $500 - Move down to 25nl @ $400
25nl = $250 - Move down to 10nl @ $200
10nl = $100 - Move down to 5nl @ $80
5nl = $50 - Move down to 2nl @ $40

Of course, you can do the inverse starting from 2nl.

easy game.

Yes EP, I'm a whale.

I can't decide if you're actually an idiot, or if you're just pretending to be one in a piss poor attempt to troll.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

Yes EP, I'm a whale.

I can't decide if you're actually an idiot, or if you're just pretending to be one in a piss poor attempt to troll.

If it makes you feel better, I'm an idiot.

Well, that makes two of us. I'm an idiot for the things I say though, not the things I do. Is that really your BR strategy? You must experience some serious fluctuations. I won't step up until I know I'm winning at the lower level. I have around $90 profit in 200k hands at 10nl, hardly breathtaking, therefore I'll get murdered at 25nl, so I play 10nl until I get better.

Good luck to you, at least your poker will be more exciting than mine. If you enjoy playing, who the fuck am I to critisise your BR management?

Originally Posted by OngBonga

Well, that makes two of us. I'm an idiot for the things I say though, not the things I do. Is that really your BR strategy? You must experience some serious fluctuations. I won't step up until I know I'm winning at the lower level. I have around $90 profit in 200k hands at 10nl, hardly breathtaking, therefore I'll get murdered at 25nl, so I play 10nl until I get better.

Good luck to you, at least your poker will be more exciting than mine. If you enjoy playing, who the fuck am I to critisise your BR management?

I don't experience as many fluctuations as you may think as I've only started playing properly this month (fairly significant sample size though), and I try and minimise situations where I do dumb shit (which is why most ppl stay at micros forever). A downside to this MAY be that I miss some value for the sake of lower variance - but the fish are full and plentiful enough at pokerstars for this not to be that much of a problem...YET.

Because I have a full time career, I guess I could easily deposit again but I'm determined not to.

P.S. I don't look at the microstakes as being "levels" per se. That is to say, I don't look at 25nl and think "zomg the players are much better than they are at 10nl". Quite the contrary in fact, in the few thousand hands I have at the stake so far, I'm finding it more straightforward than 10nl. I don't plan on staying at 25nl for too long either. Ultimately, I think all the players up to 50nl are horribly bad, including myself, I'm just trying to make sure I'm just a slight bit better.

I'm not overly concerned with trying to master one stake before I move up...it doesn't make sense at all, since every stake plays slightly differently. My main concern is just doing my best every session and moving up as quickly as possible.

I'll just keep moving up until I start to hit my stop losses.