Folding KK preflop

Someone else here playing at the Prima Network? 100NL or above? Noticed the sometimes insane tightness of these tables? I am a very aggressive player, and usually I would never advice someone to fold kings preflop in a cashgame. Up until recently I seriously doubted I would ever lay it down preflop in a ringgame. Since I started to play on Prima Poker, my attitude towards this is beginning to change. When I played at Party I would never even consider this, but what to do when the table is really, really tight? Have you ever played at tables where people will never raise back you re-raise with anything less than kings and aces? And if so, surely you must have considered to muck your kings? Think about this... Sure it is easy to say "NEVER FOLD KINGS PREFLOP YOU WEAKTIGHT SCHMUCK!", but really... Poker isn't that simple... Right?

sometimes its pretty easy.

Haha yes it is... Maybe I should elobarate a little; I am a multitabler, and a multitabler seldomly has any good reads on villains. But I think that nowadays the overall tightness on pokergames are increasing. Sure, if you have a good read that villain has aces you should muck your kings, it isn't that hard really What I am trying to get at is that maybe we have to reevaluate the wellknown, widespread statement that you should never muck your kings preflop w/o very SPECIFIC reads. Coz nowadays, at certain pokerrooms and certains limits the STANDARD-guy seems to have aces in this situations so maybe you should go so far as to require specific reads for calling/raising all-in with kings instead of folding. Personally I feel poker has gotten a lot tighter the last year, and maybe the true golden days of internet poker are gone... I think there will always be profit in poker, but it seems games aren't as profitable as they used to be.

I would ONLY fold WITH a read, not the oppoosite.

I think you should one-table to try to get reads. If all those guys are tight and you have reads, you can pillage the table. If you are multi-tabling to earn a bonus, that's one thing but if you multitable for the heck of it but complain you have no reads, that's another.

I have played Prima as recently as Saturday and the tables I go to (100NL 6max) are not rock gardens - qutie the opposite. My wife plays 25NL full and it's loose there as well.

r8ed ... in my quest to learn, I've always wondered what 'having a read' meant? In this situation, you haven't seen this player re-raise prior to you getting KKs. Do you fold?

Originally Posted by naturaltan

r8ed ... in my quest to learn, I've always wondered what 'having a read' meant?

Putting your opponent to a profile.

How many hands do they play?
What's their raising standard?
Calling standard?
How does this change post-flop?
Are they playing multiple tables?
How aware of strategy are they?
Do they have a clue about big bet poker?
etc...

prima is a funny bunch
ive seen all sorts at 100Nl cold called
The actual best style for multi tabling these games is quite laggy at the full tables and tight at the 6 max.
6 amx is loose with enough bluffers to make if profitable. The full rings are just super tight, you can open with a huge range from mp and take down pots with a quick c-bet. Getting your monsters paid is a nightmare as these guys dont take hands any further than they should. Ive seen cases of tptk checked down after a pot bet on the flop. naturally playing against weak tight players is +ev for me and as to your question id still get my money in with kings everyday

Originally Posted by naturaltan

In this situation, you haven't seen this player re-raise prior to you getting KKs. Do you fold?

Somebody would have to prove me wrong more than once for me to lay down Kings preflop. Then I have my read - allin 3-bet preflop=AA. I have to be hit over the head sometimes.

I have folded KK preflop once or twice. It was only when there was a big 3-bet by a tight player or by someone with a nice size stack.

Side note: I once folded QQ after someone raised me then someone raised them. This was on the 2 cent tables last year and they ended up having KK and AA! Obviously this is a much easier fold to make, but that's why I called it a side note.

Folding KK preflop does not make you a tightass shmuck, it just means that you have taken into consideration all factors (and have hopefully made the right one).

I believe you are right about the 6MAX-games, they are certainly looser. Of course they should be, afterall the games is shorthanded... But even so it's far more lose compared to the 10-handed games than they "should" be. R8ed wrote that he would never fold kings without reads. What my whole post actually intended to say is that sometimes the situation arise when you have to figure if the correct thing to do is to require specific reads for folding Kings, or if it is more correct to require a specific read for calling... Because if the overall player will have aces or kings more often than he would qq, jj, ak, whatever... Then you can do the math yourself. That's a simple EV-calculation.

This leads us into another topic; If a game is so tight that you theoretically shouldn't call an all-in bet preflop with kings, should you seek out another game or are tight games as easy to exploit as loose ones? My first reaction is NO. A tight game should be much harder to exploit than a loose one. But that could be because I am used to play terrible loose opponents, and aint used to play the setfarming/bonuswhoring/nutcamping players of today. The true question is; how do you adjust your play to fit in this game?

Most games I play in have a mix of different player types. All it takes is one really terrible player in the right seat to make a game worth my time. Two or three terrible players and a bunch of nits is a great table texture for me. So even though I'm playing in good games, there is at least one PS 100NL regular who I wouldn't dream of going all-in with pre-flop without exactly AA. He's earned that right.

the prima 100Nl full ring game is easy enough.
Obviously you open with the normal range of hands but id add suited connectors and other 'half hands' in mp simply bcoz raising the pot preflop requires this rocks to only hold a fairly tight range of hands. Same in raised pots.
A lot of my money from prima comes from simply calling raises with any two to get HU with a rock and then simply calling his c-bet and raising the turn.
Its gona take a while to get looked up and then after a couple when you do its either stack bluffing time or betting the goods.
positon and opps are who to pick on. I prefer a tightish game as i can pick off opps Hu as i please. A looser game is more difficult for me, not so in 6max but definatly in full ring as i dont like the number of players who can come in behind my preflop raises.
Of course your other option is to buy in with 20 or so and push 4 or 5 random preflop hands, hoep to get a caller (loosing doesnt matter) then sit in and play a standard game. A stupid image will do wonders.
Of course that opens up the other idea of sitting in these games short stacked, something ive done well at martins but not so well at prima...
Id add as well that someone once told me that the 200Nl game is much easier than the 100NL game on prima. Having tried the dman challenge i found that to be the case.

In Phil Gordens Little green book has has a section named 'The Fourth Raise Means Aces'.

Im deffinatly gonna start laying down kk occasioanlly preflop, im sure it will be +ev with reads. Without a read, possibly still +ev (when its obv eg u raise, they re-raise, u re-raise, they push for 100bbs) As you say, the standard guy in this situation nowdays isnt that much of an idiot, and usually they have AA here.

If you think about it, this is a cash game.. we're not in that much of a hurry.. we couldof not been dealt KK in this hand, but be making a blindsteal mixing things up move with 67s in the CO. Now youve invested say 20-30BBs and his 4th raise has put you AI for your stack. Calling here is alot to risk in a very tight/close situation. I prefer to be playing for stacks in more clear-cut situations.

If you look at PokerTracker, most likely a significant chunk of your AA winnings comes from playing for stacks against KK.

If you can't laydown KK in the opposite situation every now and then, then the money you make off of AA>KK is canceled out.

I don't use PT ( does it work on bodog? ) but I'd bet that alot of your KK winnings come from playing for stacks against QQ, JJ and AK. How can you play for stacks against these hands but not against AA?

QQ and JJ play far differently than AA

QQ and JJ play far differently than AA

This is also goes back to the Kings I laid down against the N:25 player a few weeks ago.I agree that QQ and JJ are far easier to play then KK,and that alot of my AA profit in NL25 have come from destacking KK and AKs ESP on the drunk Fri and Sat nights galore.

First of all, folding KK preflop is something that people think way too much about. At a full table 1-24 times you'll be up against AA. I mean, how worth is it to sweat that every time you get KK and get reraised that they have AA? Far too many people who go broke with KK against AA have nightmares about it for weeks. It all evens out in the long run. There may be a few times where you consider laying down KK preflop, but even at limits like 200NL people play QQ and JJ like the nuts. You lose a lot of money in the long run by folding KK preflop.

I don't use PT ( does it work on Bodog? ) but I'd bet that alot of your KK winnings come from playing for stacks against QQ, JJ and AK. How can you play for stacks against these hands but not against AA?

Sometimes. More often it should come from playing with players who are too bad to understand AA is a beatable hand.

QQ and JJ play far differently than AA

Not always. Play with the right players. Make players believe QQ/JJ/AK is the best hand etc. then they play very similarly.

alot of my AA profit in NL25 have come from destacking KK and AKs ESP on the drunk Fri and Sat nights galore.

True. Do you not break aces post flop though?#

First of all, folding KK preflop is something that people think way too much about. At a full table 1-24 times you'll be up against AA. I mean, how worth is it to sweat that every time you get KK and get reraised that they have AA? Far too many people who go broke with KK against AA have nightmares about it for weeks. It all evens out in the long run. There may be a few times where you consider laying down KK preflop, but even at limits like 200NL people play QQ and JJ like the nuts. You lose a lot of money in the long run by folding KK preflop.

Everyone reread this post then stop folding kk like weak players.

I am not saying you should be able to make the correct laydown every time. In heads up action its virtually impossible.

But when you're on the button with KK, and the UTG raises, is reraised and then another person re-re-raises all in, you can be fairly sure your kings are rags.

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

First of all, folding KK preflop is something that people think way too much about. At a full table 1-24 times you'll be up against AA. I mean, how worth is it to sweat that every time you get KK and get reraised that they have AA? Far too many people who go broke with KK against AA have nightmares about it for weeks. It all evens out in the long run. There may be a few times where you consider laying down KK preflop, but even at limits like 200NL people play QQ and JJ like the nuts. You lose a lot of money in the long run by folding KK preflop.

Everyone reread this post then stop folding kk like weak players.

i dissagree with that post.

'it all evens out in the long run' whats this ment to mean!? sounds like your referring to the fact mentioned earlier that if you always go AI with AA and KK PF then you're making no money from your AAs vs KKs because you lose it all to your KKs vs AA's infact if more players are folding *their* kks then your in an even worse situation.

you also talk about not being scared of a re-raise when you have raised kk, of course we're not scared in this situation - its when the op 3 or 4-bets and re-raises us allin which is the situation worth looking into - and i belive is the time to make some laydowns.

Originally Posted by SinkRox

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

First of all, folding KK preflop is something that people think way too much about. At a full table 1-24 times you'll be up against AA. I mean, how worth is it to sweat that every time you get KK and get reraised that they have AA? Far too many people who go broke with KK against AA have nightmares about it for weeks. It all evens out in the long run. There may be a few times where you consider laying down KK preflop, but even at limits like 200NL people play QQ and JJ like the nuts. You lose a lot of money in the long run by folding KK preflop.

Everyone reread this post then stop folding kk like weak players.

i dissagree with that post.

'it all evens out in the long run' whats this ment to mean!? sounds like your referring to the fact mentioned earlier that if you always go AI with AA and KK PF then you're making no money from your AAs vs KKs because you lose it all to your KKs vs AA's infact if more players are folding *their* kks then your in an even worse situation.

you also talk about not being scared of a re-raise when you have raised kk, of course we're not scared in this situation - its when the op 3 or 4-bets and re-raises us allin which is the situation worth looking into - and i belive is the time to make some laydowns.

Very few players, if any, will be able to get away from KK preflop. And if you're playing against players who manage to get away from KK preflop then you have a bigger problem on your hands, and that is table selection.

There are a few situations where I could fold KK preflop, but very few. Your going to find a lot of players who are willing to go the distance preflop hands like QQ and JJ, and even crap like TT and AQ. Against an opponent you have pegged pretty well or something then folding KK preflop is something you should consider with deep stacks and a small investment. But I still believe you need to have a good read to fold KK preflop, and even so the laydown shouldn't be made regularly.

uhh laeelin and I debunked this myth a long time ago. If you're up against a tight player, as are now common at pokerstars and party, they will not reraise/push without aces nearly enough to make calling/pushing with kings worth it, and its not even close. we did this by looking at our own experiences over tens of thousands of hands, and an overwhelming percentage of times people reraised, they had aces.

And someone said, what's this situation matter, its infrequent. Well, you get KK vs AA 1 in ~5000 hands or so. So, let's say by being able to fold, you can save 75BB's per time. 75BB/5000 = 1.5bb/100. For how much time people spend analyzing each and every single hand to squeeze out an extra .1bb here and there, people sure seem to easily dismiss a free 1.5BB/100 as not worth bothering with. (BB means big blind here.) Even if you only get half this due to bad reads, saying "I'm not going to play as good as I could because its easier my way" isn't how i roll.

I would never fold KK prelop at 50NL or below. The chance is just too great your oppenent sucks ass and has TT or AJs. Ive folded KK twice preflop, both times in 3 way reraised pots where a short stack was obviously going all in anyway, and a tight, solid player was showing huge amounts of agression. Both folds were correct. It's so much easier to fold when you get to see the showdown.

Conversely, at higher stakes if you hold AA and a tight, solid player is showing alot of agression preflop, concider a smooth call -> c/r on the flop. This will not allow them to get away from their hand so easily, where as they might have been able to fold it preflop with only a few bb commited.

at 10nl where I have the most experience, people play Q8o like its AA sometimes so I do not see myself folding KK ever at 10nl or 25nl, Ive run up against a situation where it feels like they have AA and we both flip and I lose but then I have had other times preflop where I am like well I guess Im gona pay off AA again and they show a low PP or just trash.

I liked Greedoo's post. One of the better posts I have seen in awhile.

Yeh you obviously need to factor in what your stakes / site / current table / opponent.

If someone has an 80BBstack or lower, then theres very little chance Ill fold preflop (less risk plus more chance theyre a bad player holding junk)

The only thing is I can recall a good few times where Im certain they have aces but a voice in my head is saying "FORUMS SAY I MUSN'T EVER LAY IT!" I need to get this vioce out my head and very occasionally lay when i have that certain feeling.

True. Do you not break aces post flop though?#

To be honest if I had to count the number of times I danced with hot girls and cracked Pocket Aces;I would venture to say the Aces had me covered.So nah.

BTW my Aces always lose.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Most games I play in have a mix of different player types. All it takes is one really terrible player in the right seat to make a game worth my time. Two or three terrible players and a bunch of nits is a great table texture for me. So even though I'm playing in good games, there is at least one PS 100NL regular who I wouldn't dream of going all-in with pre-flop without exactly AA. He's earned that right.

Hehe, if it's the person who I think you are talking about that runs at a 1% PFR, I agree with you 100%.

Originally Posted by Renton

I am not saying you should be able to make the correct laydown every time. In heads up action its virtually impossible.

But when you're on the button with KK, and the UTG raises, is reraised and then another person re-re-raises all in, you can be fairly sure your kings are rags.

Please post a hand in action where you are on the button with KK looking at a UTG raisie, a 3-bet, and a 4-bet in front of you. Then we can discuss this hand in detail.

I've only ever laid down KK once.

That was in Pacific 25NL, where two short stacks both went all-in.

I called (About 1/3 of my stack), and a guy with about $50 went all in.

I thought about it for a bit, and folded.

Turned out I was up against 77, QQ, and AA from the large stack.

He got his payday, and I'm glad I didn't contribute to too much of it.