Folding KK preflop.

Is folding KK preflop sometimes a +EV play? I've heard a lot of people say they would never fold KK preflop unless the person showed them that they had AA, or that they're paying it off 99% of the time and would only fold in tournaments when you could easily surivive by folding and outlasting. I'm talking about ring. I sometimes run into AA with KK where they show a lot of aggression that people would only really show with AA or KK. Would a better player fold KK?

In about 55,000 hands I've seen a lot of these suituations and I only remember once, where someone with a full stack went all in on my KK and he had AJ. Shouldn't I be making easy folds here?

***** Hand History for Game 2554111428 *****
$50 NL Texas Hold'em - Thursday, August 18, 00:31:38 EDT 2005
Table Table 55035 (6 max) (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: brownsfan23 ( $155.01 )
Seat 2: crazylegsam ( $118.75 )
Seat 5: eldrun ( $88.60 )
Seat 6: JEstrop ( $129.15 )
Seat 3: ButtPlugga ( $52.65 )
Seat 4: kiahbree ( $61.10 )
crazylegsam posts small blind [$0.25].
ButtPlugga posts big blind [$0.50].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to JEstrop [ Kh Kd ]
kiahbree folds.
eldrun calls [$0.50].
JEstrop raises [$2].
brownsfan23 raises [$6].
crazylegsam calls [$5.75].
ButtPlugga folds.
eldrun folds.
JEstrop raises [$28].
brownsfan23 is all-In.
crazylegsam folds.
JEstrop is all-In.
** Dealing Flop ** [ As, Tc, 9s ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Qs ]
** Dealing River ** [ 6s ]
JEstrop shows [ Kh, Kd ] a pair of kings.
brownsfan23 shows [ Ad, Ah ] three of a kind, aces.
brownsfan23 wins $25.86 from side pot #1 with three of a kind, aces.
brownsfan23 wins $263.30 from the main pot with three of a kind, aces.


***** Hand History for Game 2538469117 *****
$50 NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, August 15, 04:48:15 EDT 2005
Table Table 37047 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 1: xnisula888 ( $17.50 )
Seat 3: JEstrop ( $122.45 )
Seat 4: tickers1 ( $84.13 )
Seat 5: JimNashe ( $69.85 )
Seat 6: dr0ob3r ( $22.54 )
JimNashe posts small blind [$0.25].
dr0ob3r posts big blind [$0.50].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to JEstrop [ Ks Kh ]
xnisula888 calls [$0.50].
JEstrop raises [$2.50].
tickers1 folds.
JimNashe raises [$9.75].
dr0ob3r folds.
xnisula888 folds.
JEstrop raises [$27.50].
JimNashe is all-In.
JEstrop calls [$39.85].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4s, 7h, 5s ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3c ]
** Dealing River ** [ 3h ]
JEstrop shows [ Ks, Kh ] two pairs, kings and threes.
JimNashe shows [ Ac, As ] two pairs, aces and threes.
JimNashe wins $138.70 from the main pot with two pairs, aces and threes.


***** Hand History for Game 2482321405 *****
$50 NL Texas Hold'em - Friday, August 05, 14:16:31 EDT 2005
Table Table 36837 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: The_Rake3 ( $36.43 )
Seat 5: JEstrop ( $75.37 )
Seat 6: StraightHush ( $22.25 )
Seat 4: snakes35 ( $31.40 )
Seat 2: Knackarn ( $45.75 )
Seat 3: Basebalfan86 ( $49.50 )
StraightHush posts small blind [$0.25].
The_Rake3 posts big blind [$0.50].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to JEstrop [ Kh Kd ]
Knackarn raises [$2].
Basebalfan86 folds.
snakes35 calls [$2].
JEstrop raises [$6].
StraightHush folds.
The_Rake3 folds.
Knackarn raises [$8].
snakes35 calls [$8].
JEstrop is all-In.
Knackarn is all-In.
snakes35 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Th, 2d, Qs ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9c ]
** Dealing River ** [ Tc ]
Knackarn shows [ As, Ad ] two pairs, aces and tens.
JEstrop shows [ Kh, Kd ] two pairs, kings and tens.
JEstrop wins $29.62 from side pot #1 with two pairs, kings and tens.
Knackarn wins $100.25 from the main pot with two pairs, aces and tens.


***** Hand History for Game 2494207320 *****
$50 NL Texas Hold'em - Sunday, August 07, 15:41:04 EDT 2005
Table Table 36641 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 2: JEstrop ( $50 )
Seat 3: mtbottle ( $69.73 )
Seat 6: Zeke_55 ( $43.03 )
Seat 5: csarno4 ( $31.93 )
Seat 1: Armageddon43 ( $55.78 )
Seat 4: hjortmartin ( $49.13 )
Zeke_55 posts small blind [$0.25].
Armageddon43 posts big blind [$0.50].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to JEstrop [ Kd Ks ]
JEstrop raises [$3].
mtbottle folds.
hjortmartin folds.
csarno4 folds.
Zeke_55 raises [$6.75].
Armageddon43 folds.
JEstrop raises [$12].
Zeke_55 is all-In.
JEstrop calls [$28.03].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 7h, 6c, 3d ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Qc ]
** Dealing River ** [ 6s ]
JEstrop shows [ Kd, Ks ] two pairs, kings and sixes.
Zeke_55 shows [ Ac, Ah ] two pairs, aces and sixes.
Zeke_55 wins $84.56 from the main pot with two pairs, aces and sixes.


***** Hand History for Game 2553635135 *****
$50 NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, August 17, 23:16:56 EDT 2005
Table Table 55035 (6 max) (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: brownsfan23 ( $78.19 )
Seat 2: crazylegsam ( $129.75 )
Seat 3: BeeBack ( $106.20 )
Seat 4: LuKkyWon ( $43.05 )
Seat 5: RBowtie97 ( $25.15 )
Seat 6: JEstrop ( $50 )
RBowtie97 posts small blind [$0.25].
JEstrop posts big blind [$0.50].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to JEstrop [ Kc Kd ]
brownsfan23 folds.
crazylegsam raises [$1].
BeeBack folds.
LuKkyWon calls [$1].
RBowtie97 raises [$2.75].
JEstrop raises [$5.50].
crazylegsam calls [$5].
LuKkyWon calls [$5].
RBowtie97 is all-In.
JEstrop is all-In.
crazylegsam folds.
LuKkyWon is all-In.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Js, Kh, Td ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 4s ]
** Dealing River ** [ 2d ]
JEstrop shows [ Kc, Kd ] three of a kind, kings.
LuKkyWon doesn't show [ 4c, 7c ] a pair of fours.
RBowtie97 doesn't show [ As, Ah ] a pair of aces.
JEstrop wins $6.95 from side pot #2 with three of a kind, kings.
JEstrop wins $35.80 from side pot #1 with three of a kind, kings.
JEstrop wins $79.45 from the main pot with three of a kind, kings.


***** Hand History for Game 2543015620 *****
$50 NL Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, August 16, 00:26:51 EDT 2005
Table Table 37191 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: JEstrop ( $167.67 )
Seat 2: mickyfitz ( $25.20 )
Seat 3: drumboy1021 ( $30.45 )
Seat 4: davidinbigd ( $45.75 )
Seat 6: Paychex ( $63.55 )
Seat 5: a_sunflower ( $55.60 )
JEstrop posts small blind [$0.25].
mickyfitz posts big blind [$0.50].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to JEstrop [ Kh Ks ]
drumboy1021 calls [$0.50].
davidinbigd calls [$0.50].
a_sunflower calls [$0.50].
Paychex calls [$0.50].
JEstrop raises [$2.75].
mickyfitz folds.
drumboy1021 folds.
davidinbigd calls [$2.50].
a_sunflower raises [$9.50].
Paychex folds.
JEstrop raises [$27].
davidinbigd folds.
a_sunflower is all-In.
JEstrop calls [$25.60].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4d, Ts, 3s ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7d ]
** Dealing River ** [ Kc ]
JEstrop shows [ Kh, Ks ] three of a kind, kings.
a_sunflower doesn't show [ As, Ah ] a pair of aces.
JEstrop wins $113.70 from the main pot with three of a kind, kings.

um, stop running in to AA k?

-'rilla

Don't fold without a read.

Just had KK again, should I have folded this?! No reads!

***** Hand History for Game 2554674411 *****
$50 NL Texas Hold'em - Thursday, August 18, 02:22:06 EDT 2005
Table Table 36588 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: Clone4 ( $64.05 )
Seat 2: JEstrop ( $71.25 )
Seat 5: canotwin ( $73.75 )
Seat 6: shahdads ( $48.45 )
Seat 4: pkgrant ( $68.20 )
Seat 3: zebuline ( $43.65 )
Clone4 posts small blind [$0.25].
JEstrop posts big blind [$0.50].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to JEstrop [ Kh Kc ]
zebuline folds.
canotwin folds.
shahdads raises [$1].
Clone4 raises [$4.75].
JEstrop raises [$12.50].
shahdads folds.
Clone4 is all-In [$59.05]
JEstrop calls [$51.05].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4s, Th, Jh ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Tc ]
** Dealing River ** [ 8d ]
JEstrop shows [ Kh, Kc ] two pairs, kings and tens.
Clone4 shows [ Ah, As ] two pairs, aces and tens.
Clone4 wins $127.10 from the main pot with two pairs, aces and tens.

Originally Posted by Estrop

Just had KK again, should I have folded this?! No reads!

No.

YOu need a specific read that they are a complete rock that basically doesn't raise preflop, even then i'll pay off a single rock. It took two extreme rocks to go allin infront of me for me to fold them preflop. Not a situation that comes up very often.

Example A.

***** Hand History for Game 2509480557 *****
$100 NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, August 10, 02:02:37 EDT 2005
Table Table 37768 (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 3: jaclynfs ( $0 )
Seat 4: Mister__Plow ( $118.77 )
Seat 5: VICE26 ( $97.80 )
Seat 7: Smokey27111 ( $99 )
Seat 8: PorKed05 ( $90.24 )
Seat 9: Wahoo2006 ( $96 )
Seat 6: Acehole1313 ( $100 )
VICE26 posts small blind [$0.50].
Acehole1313 posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Wahoo2006 [ Kc Kh ]
>You have options at Table 37146 Table!.
Smokey27111 folds.
PorKed05 folds.
jaclynfs has left the table.
Wahoo2006 raises [$4].
Mister__Plow folds.
VICE26 folds.
Acehole1313 raises [$19].
Photoc: wow, he flopped a straight
Wahoo2006 is all-In.
Acehole1313: lol
Acehole1313: i just got kicked out of a tourney on a 3 outer
Acehole1313: so here goes the tilt play
Acehole1313 calls [$76].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Jd, 4s, Th ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Kd ]
** Dealing River ** [ 4d ]
Acehole1313 shows [ Ah, Qd ] a straight, ten to ace.
Wahoo2006 shows [ Kc, Kh ] a full house, Kings full of fours.
Wahoo2006 wins $189.50 from the main pot with a full house, Kings full of fours.

Example B.

***** Hand History for Game 2109547851 *****
$25 NL Hold'em - Thursday, May 26, 17:09:03 EDT 2005
Table Table 39186 (Real Money)
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: ChiliOnIt ( $53.4 )
Seat 9: Wahoo2006 ( $44.35 )
Seat 10: OGbreaker ( $10.03 )
Seat 2: Igotyourdoh ( $25 )
Seat 5: bluto6436 ( $35.32 )
Seat 7: missymandyg ( $4.75 )
Seat 4: tyracassy ( $30.28 )
Seat 3: robb1e ( $19.7 )
Seat 6: FraggelJR ( $24.25 )
Seat 8: Tequilatech ( $25 )
ChiliOnIt posts small blind [$0.1].
Igotyourdoh posts big blind [$0.25].
Tequilatech posts big blind [$0.25].
Wahoo2006 posts big blind + dead [$0.35].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Wahoo2006 [ Kh Kc ]
robb1e folds.
tyracassy folds.
bluto6436 raises [$0.75].
FraggelJR calls [$0.75].
missymandyg folds.
>You have options at Table 37164 Table!.
Tequilatech folds.
Wahoo2006 raises [$2.75].
OGbreaker folds.
ChiliOnIt folds.
Igotyourdoh folds.
bluto6436 raises [$7.25].
FraggelJR folds.
Wahoo2006 is all-In.
bluto6436 is all-In.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 9c, 4h, Th ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 4s ]
** Dealing River ** [ 6c ]
bluto6436 shows [ Qd, Qs ] two pairs, queens and fours.
Wahoo2006 shows [ Kh, Kc ] two pairs, kings and fours.
Wahoo2006 wins $8.93 from side pot #1 with two pairs, kings and fours.
Wahoo2006 wins $69.09 from the main pot with two pairs, kings and fours.


Example C.

A hand i can't find I don't know why. Someone pushed KQ at me preflop.... I see people push AK all the time, generally it happens when I have aa though...

The thing to decide is whether you're at least 50% sure they have aces. I'd say, if you get to be 60% sure, fold.

When I finally built my BR up enough to have a go at 50NL I lost KK to AA in a very similar fashion to the hands above; then when I rebought lost AA to someone elses KK who caught up on flop Nice welcome aboard present!

But I think there are certain players I would lay KK down to before the flop, but only because I have seen them play before a lot and have a good read on them, other than that I'm going down in a blaze of glory.

I've noticed in your HHs that you make the same "mistake" in most of them.

When you raise with KK and get re-raised, DONT re-raise back (unless you push and that depends on reads)

As T.J. Cloutiers says in his book.

"If I raise and get re-popped, there is only one and only one hand that I will re-raise back, Aces. If you are re-raising back (after you have raised and got re-raised) with, lets say KK, you are leaving no room to your opponent to make a mistake, he pushes with AA and folds everything else"

Come to your opponents shoes:

Someone raises to lets say $10. You make it $30 to go. He makes it $100. You move in with AA and FOLD EVERYTHING ELSE.

3 or 4 times in the HH you posted you do the same thing. You raise, get reraised and PUSH with KK. They call you with AA and FOLD the rest.I am certain that you can find HHs where you did the same play and got a fold pre-flop when you pushed. That was the times that the other guy had QQ/JJ and HE would have paid off your KK. Sure he may still have AA and you pay him off but the way you play KK preflop (in those HHs, dont know you as a player) you are not giving someone a chance to call you/pay you off with QQ.

----------------------------------------
JEstrop raises [$2].
brownsfan23 raises [$6].
crazylegsam calls [$5.75].
ButtPlugga folds.
eldrun folds.
JEstrop raises [$28].
brownsfan23 is all-In.
--------------------------------------
JEstrop raises [$2.50].
tickers1 folds.
JimNashe raises [$9.75].
dr0ob3r folds.
xnisula888 folds.
JEstrop raises [$27.50].
JimNashe is all-In.
JEstrop calls [$39.85].
--------------------------------------
Knackarn raises [$2].
Basebalfan86 folds.
snakes35 calls [$2].
JEstrop raises [$6].
StraightHush folds.
The_Rake3 folds.
Knackarn raises [$8].
snakes35 calls [$8].
JEstrop is all-In.
Knackarn is all-In.
--------------------------------------
Dealt to JEstrop [ Kd Ks ]
JEstrop raises [$3].
mtbottle folds.
hjortmartin folds.
csarno4 folds.
Zeke_55 raises [$6.75].
Armageddon43 folds.
JEstrop raises [$12].
Zeke_55 is all-In.
JEstrop calls [$28.03].
--------------------------------------
Dealt to JEstrop [ Kh Ks ]
drumboy1021 calls [$0.50].
davidinbigd calls [$0.50].
a_sunflower calls [$0.50].
Paychex calls [$0.50].
JEstrop raises [$2.75].
mickyfitz folds.
drumboy1021 folds.
davidinbigd calls [$2.50].
a_sunflower raises [$9.50].
Paychex folds.
JEstrop raises [$27].
davidinbigd folds.
a_sunflower is all-In.
JEstrop calls [$25.60].
--------------------------------------
Dealt to JEstrop [ Kh Kc ]
zebuline folds.
canotwin folds.
shahdads raises [$1].
Clone4 raises [$4.75].
JEstrop raises [$12.50].
shahdads folds.
Clone4 is all-In [$59.05]
JEstrop calls [$51.05].
----------------------------------------
Notice a pattern here? Every single hand you raise get reraised and reraise back. You re-raise his re-raise and he PUSHES! Can he do that with QQ or less? NO.

1st hand he push was for more than $100 more to your $28 re-re-raise. FOLD your KK there.

Be cool.

Thanks for the reply m3laNcholy, I see what you mean. I realise that I'm playing KK the way only AA will call; I'll have to fix that.

Are you also saying that even if they reraise your raise and you call and the board is rags and they bet every street and AA that you should pay this off? Is losing KK to AA inevitable unless its on a board that would make it easier to fold?

Melancholy, that is one of the best posts I've read in a while. Thank you for posting it!

uh...well, I beg to differ with Melancholy.

When you get reraised, you don't necessarily have to punch all in, but you should still raise it again, at the very least. Depending on what type of table you have, punching all in may very well have a "boy, he's all in. He's gotta be bluffing. I call with AKs or JJ" mentality on your opponent.
But calling isn't the best option in teh world. You're letting hands that might have just reraised to see where they stood see a flop. Hands like AQs or something that somebody might try to reraise. Then, when the flop comes rags and you bet, they fold. No more money to you.

YOu need to reraise a reraise to your raise; they've already shown they like their hand. Make them pay to see it through. Hands other than AA will call.

Originally Posted by ensign_lee

uh...well, I beg to differ with Melancholy.

When you get reraised, you don't necessarily have to punch all in, but you should still raise it again, at the very least. Depending on what type of table you have, punching all in may very well have a "boy, he's all in. He's gotta be bluffing. I call with AKs or JJ" mentality on your opponent.
But calling isn't the best option in teh world. You're letting hands that might have just reraised to see where they stood see a flop. Hands like AQs or something that somebody might try to reraise. Then, when the flop comes rags and you bet, they fold. No more money to you.

YOu need to reraise a reraise to your raise; they've already shown they like their hand. Make them pay to see it through. Hands other than AA will call.

I'm with m3laNcholy on this one. There is no shame in seeing a flop with KK. Besides, it gives you the option of folding if an A comes on the flop and doesn't allow for Ax to suck out on you so much. It also gives the villain the chance to continuation bet which you can raise or check/raise.

KK is really messing me up. This hand is the exact suituation I'm talking about. I get reraised to 12xBB. This guy has raised 7/103 hands preflop, I don't see him making this move with any other hand and I've never seen him reraise preflop. After looking back over the hand, I'm thinking maybe he had QQ and I let him catch. Would the best play here be raising it to $10 preflop, then if he reraises fold, if he calls lead on a aceless, queenless board?

***** Hand History for Game 2558726604 *****
$50 NL Texas Hold'em - Thursday, August 18, 22:49:23 EDT 2005
Table Table 37133 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 2: joebru413 ( $52.48 )
Seat 6: JEstrop ( $51.25 )
Seat 3: Oldcar05 ( $71.35 )
Seat 1: FlashAK03 ( $54.68 )
Seat 4: Plasma2527 ( $72.45 )
Seat 5: SassyShads ( $103.50 )
Oldcar05 posts small blind [$0.25].
Plasma2527 posts big blind [$0.50].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to JEstrop [ Kd Ks ]
SassyShads calls [$0.50].
JEstrop raises [$2.50].
FlashAK03 raises [$6].
joebru413 folds.
Oldcar05 folds.
Plasma2527 folds.
SassyShads folds.
JEstrop calls [$3.50].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 7c, Js, 5c ]
JEstrop checks.
FlashAK03 bets [$6].
JEstrop calls [$6].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 4h ]
JEstrop checks.
FlashAK03 bets [$12].
JEstrop calls [$12].
** Dealing River ** [ Qd ]
FlashAK03 is all-In [$30.68]
JEstrop folds.
FlashAK03 does not show cards.
FlashAK03 wins $77.93

Checkraise flop to at least $15

Well I had KK preflop. Someone raised me in EP. I called him all in which was only 4x his bet.

He called.

Ended up him having 77, catching trips.

So I'm not too happy.

Originally Posted by kdm3nac3

Well I had KK preflop. Someone raised me in EP. I called him all in which was only 4x his bet.

He called.

Ended up him having 77, catching trips.

So I'm not too happy.

good point.

Originally Posted by ensign_lee

Depending on what type of table you have, punching all in may very well have a "boy, he's all in. He's gotta be bluffing. I call with AKs or JJ" mentality on your opponent.

We are talking theory here, and I am talking about a general way to play KK when you have action so you dont end up taking it down preflop unless you are up against AA. If we start puting in factors such as table texture, reads, if someone is on tilt etc. then we will be talking forever. I've called preflop all ins with 99 cause I knew it wasnt even a coinflip, I've had people re-raise me allin preflop with 33 but we cant really start talking about that here.

Originally Posted by ensign_lee

Hands like AQs or something that somebody might try to reraise. Then, when the flop comes rags and you bet, they fold. No more money to you.

If they re-raise you preflop THEY will bet that rag flop for you. Then you play it out, dont need to discuss that I believe we all know how to play from there on. Of course you pay of AA here but the way you play it preflop you increase the chances that a hand like QQ/JJ is still in there with you and more importanly THINKS he holds the best hand.

Originally Posted by ensign_lee

You need to reraise a reraise to your raise; they've already shown they like their hand. Make them pay to see it through. Hands other than AA will call.

Sure there are hands other than AA that will call you. But this is NL. If you raise to 4BB and get re-raised it will be to lets 12BB, you reraise that back to... 25-30BB. Thats LOTS of strenght. Typical player here will put you on AA/KK 90% of the time here. Ok QQ/JJ might call but do you honestly think it will stay with you on a rag board after you "3-bet" it pre flop?
Sure I'd like to have people put in all their chips preflop with hands like JJ or AK but realistically that cant happen.

Originally Posted by kdm3nac3

Well I had KK preflop. Someone raised me in EP. I called him all in which was only 4x his bet.

He called.

Ended up him having 77, catching trips.

So I'm not too happy.

Didnt get that. He raised with 77 in ep then caught a set? What can I say, bad players are out there, bad beats happen.

Bcool.

Ok, I defiantly can't fold it against a shortstack.

***** Hand History for Game 2568788029 *****
$50 NL Texas Hold'em - Saturday, August 20, 19:12:49 EDT 2005
Table Table 36784 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: banglank ( $23.05 )
Seat 4: JEstrop ( $91 )
Seat 6: bobce_m ( $50.30 )
Seat 2: assaltator ( $28.25 )
Seat 3: geocc12 ( $45.15 )
Seat 5: Dan3641 ( $36.93 )
assaltator posts small blind [$0.25].
geocc12 posts big blind [$0.50].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to JEstrop [ Kc Ks ]
JEstrop raises [$2].
Dan3641 folds.
banglank raises [$7].
assaltator folds.
geocc12 folds.
JEstrop raises [$28].
banglank is all-In [$16.05]
** Dealing Flop ** [ Kh, Th, Jh ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2h ]
** Dealing River ** [ 9c ]
JEstrop shows [ Kc, Ks ] three of a kind, kings.
banglank shows [ Ad, Ah ] a flush, ace high.
JEstrop wins $6.95 from side pot #1 with three of a kind, kings.
banglank wins $44.85 from the main pot with a flush, ace high.

unless your opp is so tight as to be the tightest thing in a very tight place then im all in with KK.
EVERY TIME
no matter how many times i run into AA.

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

unless your opp is so tight as to be the tightest thing in a very tight place then im all in with KK.
EVERY TIME
no matter how many times i run into AA.

I agree, with ensign lee as well. If you are playing with deep stacks and you have a very specific read on somebody that they only play a certain way with AA and nothing else, then maybe you can lay down your cowboys.

As far as the comment about smooth calling a reraise preflop to not get sucked out on by Ax (not AA), I couldn't disagree more. You have the best hand preflop which is when you should be getting the money in. Why let them see a flop for cheap so they can flop an A?

This guy was a very aggressive LAG:

***** Hand History for Game 2576676247 *****
$50 NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, August 22, 01:43:11 EDT 2005
Table Table 36744 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: hiro1144 ( $25 )
Seat 2: ShadowZ17 ( $91.38 )
Seat 3: riceczech ( $72.50 )
Seat 4: JEstrop ( $51.75 )
Seat 5: stminh703 ( $61.90 )
Seat 6: EFXBB ( $49.75 )
JEstrop posts small blind [$0.25].
stminh703 posts big blind [$0.50].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to JEstrop [ Kd Ks ]
EFXBB folds.
hiro1144 calls [$0.50].
ShadowZ17 raises [$2.50].
riceczech folds.
JEstrop raises [$4.25].
stminh703 folds.
hiro1144 folds.
ShadowZ17 raises [$9.50].
JEstrop raises [$20.50].
ShadowZ17 raises [$39.75].
JEstrop is all-In [$26.75]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 9h, 5d, Qc ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9c ]
** Dealing River ** [ 4d ]
ShadowZ17 shows [ Ah, Ac ] two pairs, aces and nines.
JEstrop doesn't show [ Kd, Ks ] two pairs, kings and nines.
ShadowZ17 wins $102.50 from the main pot with two pairs, aces and nines.
EFXBB has left the table.

This is happening a lot.

Well, at least you're not getting what finished me off on Saturday - dude puts 5xBB bet pre-flop, I raise to 10xBB with AA, he goes all in (covering me), I gleefully call. We both have AA - ah well, these things happen.

And then he makes a flush on the river.

PP has taught me to check fold to any PF with top 4

How many preflop re-raises do you need to realise that your KK is not the nuts?

How many times has this happened and the other guy had QQ?

Originally Posted by Estrop

Dealt to JEstrop [ Kd Ks ]
EFXBB folds.
hiro1144 calls [$0.50].
ShadowZ17 raises [$2.50].
riceczech folds.
JEstrop raises [$4.25]. <------ this is were you tell him you have a big hand (make this raise bigger)
stminh703 folds.
hiro1144 folds.
ShadowZ17 raises [$9.50]. <------ this is were you should just call
JEstrop raises [$20.50]. <------ but you still think he "3-bet" you with less than KK.
ShadowZ17 raises [$39.75]. <------ now you know that you are beat
JEstrop is all-In [$26.75] <------ but you are too deep in this now...

I'd be getting my money in as quickly as possible. (raise bigger)

Very well done m3laNcholy. You hit the nail right on the head.

This "push all-in preflop with K-K every time" mentality seems to be carried over from tournament play, where it might be acceptable in the latter stages, but in a cash game it makes no sense. As has already been said, your opponent is going to fold all the hands you have dominated, and call with aces.

Folding K-K preflop seems like it should be standard play if you're getting raised and reraised huge.

Originally Posted by dsaxton

This "push all-in preflop with K-K every time" mentality seems to be carried over from tournament play, where it might be acceptable in the latter stages, but in a cash game it makes no sense. As has already been said, your opponent is going to fold all the hands you have dominated, and call with aces.

Folding K-K preflop seems like it should be standard play if you're getting raised and reraised huge.

You really need a read before calling an all in with KK in the mid - upper limits... just like you need a read to FOLD KK to an all in the low limits.

PS: on my last preflop all-in'.. at $50 NL, there was a $10 raise with A9o , called by TT, and then both called my all in with KK.....

EDIT: This is how I handle a reraise with KK in the lower limits.

***** Hand History for Game 2587119577 *****
$50 NL Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, August 23, 23:16:53 EDT 2005
Table Table 37285 (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 1: Laeelin ( $48.75 )
Seat 3: FISOFX4 ( $102.15 )
Seat 4: Drunk_Mime ( $54.30 )
Seat 8: jayraven ( $39 )
Seat 9: sheeawn ( $48.25 )
Seat 10: Kidindiana ( $37.15 )
Seat 2: OzCanuck ( $52.30 )
Seat 7: TnBishop911 ( $49.50 )
TnBishop911 posts small blind [$0.25].
jayraven is sitting out.
sheeawn posts big blind [$0.50].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Laeelin [ Kh Kd ]
Kidindiana calls [$0.50].
jayraven has left the table.
>You have options at Table 36930 Table!.
Laeelin raises [$2].
OzCanuck folds.
FISOFX4 raises [$3.50].
Drunk_Mime folds.
TnBishop911 folds.
sheeawn folds.
Kidindiana folds.
BigBird901 has joined the table.
Laeelin is all-In [$46.75]
jayraven has joined the table.
>You have options at Table 36922 Table!.
>You have options at Table 36922 Table!.
FISOFX4 calls [$45.25].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3c, Kc, 5h ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7h ]
** Dealing River ** [ Qd ]
FISOFX4 shows [ Jd, Jc ] a pair of jacks.
Laeelin shows [ Kh, Kd ] three of a kind, kings.
Laeelin wins $95.75 from the main pot with three of a kind, kings.
>You have options at Table 36930 Table!.
TonyMoroni has joined the table.


PS: if you do this to a rock, dont come crying to me =)
PPS: if they get lucky and hit two pair or something, accept it, and reload..

It's foolish to fold your kings to any pre flop raise. One time in twenty four (at a full table) you will be up against aces, the other twenty three however you'll be up against AK, AQ, QQ-88, etc. and you will be a large favorite. Even if you're up against aces, you will hit your set one time in five assuming you see all five cards, and you will almost certainly win if you hit trips. So your kings aren't completely hopeless even if you're unfortunate enough to be up against a couple of aces. I have folded QQ pre flop though, but that's a whole different story.

Originally Posted by dsaxton

This "push all-in preflop with K-K every time" mentality seems to be carried over from tournament play, where it might be acceptable in the latter stages, but in a cash game it makes no sense. As has already been said, your opponent is going to fold all the hands you have dominated, and call with aces.

Folding K-K preflop seems like it should be standard play if you're getting raised and reraised huge.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by aislephive

It's foolish to fold your kings to any pre flop raise. One time in twenty four (at a full table) you will be up against aces, the other twenty three however you'll be up against AK, AQ, QQ-88

Its foolish to think that those hands will call your PF all-in.

This thread just proves that online poker is rigged, don't you get it? They're getting WAY more rakes when they code the shufflings like this!! <3

I am sorry for him. Military has screwed up his mind totally. Rotten in peace bro!

Anyways, this is a very good thread and should be treated as such.
My opinion so far has been that I will not fold KK PF but I am starting to think differently. There are times that the money is just too shallow not to call or to go AI but if you are playing with +50bb's it all changes. I dont have any stats but normally when a deep stack, not to mention 2-3 other deep stacks, goes AI they normally have the goods(or KK).

It is just our mind that makes us so curious to see what the others have , you have KK and think that the hand is practically the nuts PF, after all that is what you have been told so far on this site and in every book you have read..

I would like to get some stats from someones PF how their KK has done when gone AI PF.

Originally Posted by m3laNcholy

Originally Posted by dsaxton

This "push all-in preflop with K-K every time" mentality seems to be carried over from tournament play, where it might be acceptable in the latter stages, but in a cash game it makes no sense. As has already been said, your opponent is going to fold all the hands you have dominated, and call with aces.

Folding K-K preflop seems like it should be standard play if you're getting raised and reraised huge.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by aislephive

It's foolish to fold your kings to any pre flop raise. One time in twenty four (at a full table) you will be up against aces, the other twenty three however you'll be up against AK, AQ, QQ-88

Its foolish to think that those hands will call your PF all-in.

Look two posts above yours, somebody called with jacks. I've seen people call with much worse, too. If somebody went all in PF I would call with kings every day and twice on sunday.

2 posts above M3lancholy i see a poor play.. ( Laellin said he TRUST HIS READS , he played the player or something , that dont mean anything. I m sure he did that because he knew the player , and im sure he would have play that in other way if another player was in the "victim" position )
I thought we talk about the "right" play and attitute. I cant stand people who say "i cant move to lower limits" , " i cant fold KK pre-flop" thats but attitude. The guy post just 1 hand when he play his KK poorly and another bad player called him with JJ. Estrop post 10 hands when his KK fell on AA which is more likely.
Its a pair of Kings .. nothing more nothing less

Bcool all (stolen)

P.S. Even -Rilla fold KK UTG because he is scared a raise

Originally Posted by dsaxton

This "push all-in preflop with K-K every time" mentality seems to be carried over from tournament play, where it might be acceptable in the latter stages, but in a cash game it makes no sense. As has already been said, your opponent is going to fold all the hands you have dominated, and call with aces.

Folding K-K preflop seems like it should be standard play if you're getting raised and reraised huge.

No AA usually walks you into the pot, no runs you head long. AK and QQ even JJ love to push you out.

If you think they have AA becuase they're walking you in. Then call and flop a set.

-'rilla

Originally Posted by aislephive

It's foolish to fold your kings to any pre flop raise. One time in twenty four (at a full table) you will be up against aces, the other twenty three however you'll be up against AK, AQ, QQ-88, etc. and you will be a large favorite. Even if you're up against aces, you will hit your set one time in five assuming you see all five cards, and you will almost certainly win if you hit trips. So your kings aren't completely hopeless even if you're unfortunate enough to be up against a couple of aces. I have folded QQ pre flop though, but that's a whole different story.

Originally Posted by MannerBoy

P.S. Even -Rilla fold KK UTG because he is scared a raise

I fold KK UTG+1 if UTG open limps becuase I know hes got AA.

-'rilla

Also.. unless they are reraising from the blinds, they will have position on you. If you do decide to call a reraise, you are going to be paying off AA anyway if there is no A on the flop. If they don't have AA (the FAR more likely scenario), then you just devalued KK incredibly.. if they hit the flop (A, 2p, set, whatever), then you are paying them off big, with the exception of the pair of aces. Even then you are still losing money against a hand that likely wouldn't have been in the hand if you rereraised. (Except maybe AK). If they don't hit, the best you can hope for is that they put you on a cont. bet and raise you with position.

Anyway, the point: you should be rushing to put your money in with KK preflop. If you start folding KK everytime you think you are up against AA, I gaurantee that is -EV.

I cant say this enough..

Low limits have fish, sharks, and rocks.

If a fish is pushing all in, cheer and call with KK (fish tend to limp with AA.. they want to get paid off bigtime)

If a shark is pushing all in, fold, it's probally -EV

If a rock is pushing all in, fold, it IS -EV

I like playing fish and rocks... Easy to know what thye have (fear the rocks smooth call of your flop bet.. unless you have top set+)

I just dont like playing sharks.. =)

Originally Posted by Lukie

Also.. unless they are reraising from the blinds, they will have position on you. If you do decide to call a reraise, you are going to be paying off AA anyway if there is no A on the flop.

You raise with KK and get re-raised. A certain amount of time they have AA, sometimes they have QQ, sometimes JJ, sometimes AK, sometimes nothing. AA might even be the most unlikely scenario. Now you push and get called. Do you think his range of holdings is now the same? Is this the play with the most +EV? Do you see why? (always wanted to say that rilla!)

Originally Posted by Lukie

If they don't have AA (the FAR more likely scenario), then you just devalued KK incredibly.. if they hit the flop (A, 2p, set, whatever), then you are paying them off big, with the exception of the pair of aces. Even then you are still losing money against a hand that likely wouldn't have been in the hand if you rereraised. (Except maybe AK). If they don't hit, the best you can hope for is that they put you on a cont. bet and raise you with position.

No you are not devaluating your KK at all. You are seeing a flop with a better hand than your opponent (only AA is better). Your goal is to have your opponent put in the maximum amount of money in before the flop with a WORSE hand than your KK (ie anything other than AA) WHILE not dramatically increasing the chances that he does so with a better hand (AA) in the proccess. An example of that "dramatic increase" is in my oppinion the scenario when you push after you are re-raised and IF you get called. Now you might get outflopped, rivered or outplayed. Try to become a better player so, ideally, you can identify each of these scenarios, and make the right choices everytime. The mentality "I go all-in with Kings anyday" or anyother such "cliche" is wrong. It might make you money (and in this case it will cause no matter how bad you play Kings preflop (unless you fold them) is gonna be +EV, just depends how much) but it wont allow you to grow as a poker player especially if the "Kings pre-flop" scenario is not the only one that you play the same everytime because "thats the way it should be played".

Originally Posted by Lukie

Anyway, the point: you should be rushing to put your money in with KK preflop. If you start folding KK everytime you think you are up against AA, I gaurantee that is -EV.

Hmm... let me think, if I am folding KK preflop everytime I think I am against AA I guarantee you it wont be -EV. I call/raise when I THINK I have a best hand, I fold when I THINK I have a worse, I bluff when I THINK I can steal the pot. Generally I make decisions at the table based on what I THINK (someone suggested that I would be better off calling Daniel Negraunu everytime I had a decision but I dismissed it as impractical). Sometimes I am right, sometimes I am wrong. My goal again is to become a better and better player so that my decisions are right a bigger percentage of the time, ideally 100% of the time.

Here is what I think of KK (or QQ or anyother hand relative speaking)
I want my opponent to put in AS MANY chips as it is possible but not in a way (such as ME PUSHING) that the % he has AA becomes way to big, then play the flop. I want him to put in as much as possible with his JJ, or AQ (cause putting them all is NOT realistic, though it would be nice) and then play it out. Then I hope that I am a good enough player (and try to become a better one) so that I make the most +EV decisions as the hand is played.

Maybe I think too much, maybe I am so bored at work that my mind makes up these thoughts to keep me occupied, maybe I should just "shove it in" with KK and hope for the best. Anyway this is my aproach to the game.

Bcool all.

Originally Posted by aislephive

Originally Posted by m3laNcholy

Originally Posted by dsaxton

This "push all-in preflop with K-K every time" mentality seems to be carried over from tournament play, where it might be acceptable in the latter stages, but in a cash game it makes no sense. As has already been said, your opponent is going to fold all the hands you have dominated, and call with aces.

Folding K-K preflop seems like it should be standard play if you're getting raised and reraised huge.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by aislephive

It's foolish to fold your kings to any pre flop raise. One time in twenty four (at a full table) you will be up against aces, the other twenty three however you'll be up against AK, AQ, QQ-88

Its foolish to think that those hands will call your PF all-in.

Look two posts above yours, somebody called with jacks. I've seen people call with much worse, too. If somebody went all in PF I would call with kings every day and twice on sunday.

So? One time I had a guy call all-in with 10-7 suited. That doesn't mean it's likely to happen.

estrop told me he averages 3bb/hand with KK. with that kind of statistic, the last thing he needs to do is lower his aggression. end of story.

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Originally Posted by MannerBoy

P.S. Even -Rilla fold KK UTG because he is scared a raise

I fold KK UTG+1 if UTG open limps becuase I know hes got AA.

-'rilla

You mean you limp as well and flop four of a kind, right?

At the end of the day, it just comes down to reads. If you can't make a read, don't have a read, then don't fold KK. But to NEVER fold KK is not the best way to play them, imo.

I will say this though, I almost NEVER go AI with KK unless I'm a short stack. You want to weed the field, but you want action. AI pf with a deep stack is only going to get called by AA, or by the short stacked desperate guy. I often call someone's AI with KK and they usually NEVER have AA. Why? Because they pushed and didn't want me to call. They almost always have QQ, JJ, AQ, or AK. AA will usually smooth call unless they are an inexperienced player. AA is very easy to read on an inexperienced player. Less so online, but live it's very easy.

what is EV? Probably sounds stupid, but i dunno what it is...

Originally Posted by ScotiaTheOne

what is EV? Probably sounds stupid, but i dunno what it is...

EVerybody.

Originally Posted by journey075

Originally Posted by ScotiaTheOne

what is EV? Probably sounds stupid, but i dunno what it is...

EVerybody.

Lol journey075.

EV = Expected Value, whether it be positive or negative.

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Originally Posted by aislephive

Originally Posted by m3laNcholy

Originally Posted by dsaxton

This "push all-in preflop with K-K every time" mentality seems to be carried over from tournament play, where it might be acceptable in the latter stages, but in a cash game it makes no sense. As has already been said, your opponent is going to fold all the hands you have dominated, and call with aces.

Folding K-K preflop seems like it should be standard play if you're getting raised and reraised huge.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by aislephive

It's foolish to fold your kings to any pre flop raise. One time in twenty four (at a full table) you will be up against aces, the other twenty three however you'll be up against AK, AQ, QQ-88

Its foolish to think that those hands will call your PF all-in.

Look two posts above yours, somebody called with jacks. I've seen people call with much worse, too. If somebody went all in PF I would call with kings every day and twice on sunday.

So? One time I had a guy call all-in with 10-7 suited. That doesn't mean it's likely to happen.

96 percent of the time you have KK, you won't be up against AA. The 4 percent of the time you're up against AA, you'll win around 20 percent of the time. You can fold thinking you've made some brilliant read, and occasionally you'll be correct, but usually you'll miss your opportunity to make a lot of money. I wouldn't place my entire BR on KK, but how could you not risk one buy in with KK?

"96 percent of the time you have KK, you won't be up against AA. The 4 percent of the time you're up against AA, you'll win around 20 percent of the time. You can fold thinking you've made some brilliant read, and occasionally you'll be correct, but usually you'll miss your opportunity to make a lot of money. I wouldn't place my entire BR on KK, but how could you not risk one buy in with KK?"

I agree.

I consider folding KK preflop similar to folding middle set on an uncoordinated flop. Only one hand beats you.

96 percent of the time you have KK, you won't be up against AA. The 4 percent of the time you're up against AA

while that sounds very nice, it's forgetting something...

we are not talking about one random hand out of that 100.

we are talking about the hand that your reraised all in on.

do you think that there is just a 4% chance that your against AA the time your 5xBB bet is reraised all in? ... we all know better than that...

does that mean you should fold KK everytime someone goes all in? No.
does that mean that you should call everytime someone someone goes all-in? No.

It's actually fairly useless information... what is useful is: "will this player go all in with less than AA?"

I know players I would fold KK without a second though if they reriase all in... I also know players I wouldnt fold TT to if they went all in.

Originally Posted by journey075

Originally Posted by ScotiaTheOne

what is EV? Probably sounds stupid, but i dunno what it is...

EVerybody.

Goddamn jfish, you suck. <3

Originally Posted by aislephive

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Originally Posted by aislephive

Originally Posted by m3laNcholy

Originally Posted by dsaxton

This "push all-in preflop with K-K every time" mentality seems to be carried over from tournament play, where it might be acceptable in the latter stages, but in a cash game it makes no sense. As has already been said, your opponent is going to fold all the hands you have dominated, and call with aces.

Folding K-K preflop seems like it should be standard play if you're getting raised and reraised huge.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by aislephive

It's foolish to fold your kings to any pre flop raise. One time in twenty four (at a full table) you will be up against aces, the other twenty three however you'll be up against AK, AQ, QQ-88

Its foolish to think that those hands will call your PF all-in.

Look two posts above yours, somebody called with jacks. I've seen people call with much worse, too. If somebody went all in PF I would call with kings every day and twice on sunday.

So? One time I had a guy call all-in with 10-7 suited. That doesn't mean it's likely to happen.

96 percent of the time you have KK, you won't be up against AA. The 4 percent of the time you're up against AA, you'll win around 20 percent of the time. You can fold thinking you've made some brilliant read, and occasionally you'll be correct, but usually you'll miss your opportunity to make a lot of money. I wouldn't place my entire BR on KK, but how could you not risk one buy in with KK?

When you're up against completely random hands, then it's very unlikely that you're up against A-A, but that isn't the situation. I'm stipulating that you're getting raised and reraised preflop, which means the hands you're up against are no longer random. They're hands your opponents would be willing to make these plays with. For most decent opponents, the only reasonably likely hand is A-A when 2 of the 4 kings in the deck are in your hand.