Folding KK?

This has happened twice in the last three days, and it's getting really annoying. The situation was identical. I am dealt KK. A guy raises $1.2 - in general if someone at 20NL raises 5BB+, they're sitting on a premium hand in the range of AA/KK/QQ/AK.. maybe JJ/AQ. I reraise another $1.2. They push all-in. Hm. AA suddenly becomes likely. KK would be a very slim chance since I have it.. but people *might* do this with QQ/AK too. Am I supposed to fold KK here? That feels really wrong somehow..

And yeah, in both cases I lost my stack because they had AA. Over the past week, these two KK vs AA preflop all-ins are just about the only destackings I've taken when playing a concentrated game. Now the one today had a happy end, as I rebought to max and a few cycles later I got AA and the exact same guy decided to hang on to his QT TP for his entire stack - probably thought I was tilting/bluffing because of the earlier occurrence. But anyway, what would you guys do here? Lay down KK?


(to be really honest, this happened 3 times in the past 5 days even.. but the first time I caught a K on the board and took the pot.. still never have been in the KK vs AK or KK vs QQ preflop all-in (with highstacks) before, so maybe it's really best to just fold this in the future?..)

Reads, stacksizes, and your ability to just let it go if they show a worse hand are extremely important in order to lay down KK preflop.

But in general - if your read says AA, you and your opp both have huge stacks, and you are pretty confident your read is correct - then lay em down.

Originally Posted by chardrian

Reads, stacksizes, and your ability to just let it go if they show a worse hand are extremely important in order to lay down KK preflop.

But in general - if your read says AA, you and your opp both have huge stacks, and you are pretty confident your read is correct - then lay em down.

Yeah, I should have. After the destacking two days ago, I prided myself in laying this down from then on out.. but after that I had seen some people push with AK/QQ too, so that played in my head today. I've layed it down too in the past, when I did have a strong feeling (based on my read) that they had AA, but these both times I was only playing for 5-10 minutes so no such accurate reads yet. I guess I forgot to mention that.

I think from now on it's a lay-down unless I've seen this person push with lesser hands too. Starting the poker session with basically one buy-in down is really frustrating, it means I'll basically be playing the next hour just to recuperate it..

Ive had lots of KK situations I wished layed down because of the same situations you list. Its hard not to push back with KK.

Let me ask, would this be wrong? Just call the raise and go to the flop instead of laying the KK down preflop. That way you have a power hand going into the flop and see how that hits you. Thats what Ive started doing and if an Ace comes on the flop it makes it easier for me to let go. If a K hits the flop then your sitting pretty good, especially if opponent was raising with AK.

Yeah, shoulda done that. But if they have like JJ/QQ/AQ and call my raise, it works out fine. Ofcourse if they push, you need to lay it down. Too often that's AA when a highstack does it I think. In this particular case the flop had an A, so it would have been an easy laydown. Woulda lost $1.20 instead of $20..

I want to point something out to you...........

Assuming it's .1, .25 blinds, then after his bet and your reraise there's 3.95 in the pot. He's getting ~3.3:1 to call. I'll take those odds ANYDAY headsup. You are inviting a call. If you want a call and him to see the flop with any two, then fine. If you want to put him to a decision raise, but not a min raise.

Originally Posted by AHiltz

Assuming it's .1, .25 blinds,

.1, .2, at unibet they don't have .1, .25

then after his bet and your reraise there's 3.95 in the pot. He's getting ~3.3:1 to call. I'll take those odds ANYDAY headsup. You are inviting a call. If you want a call and him to see the flop with any two, then fine. If you want to put him to a decision raise, but not a min raise.

I reraised him another $1.2, so for a total of a $4.8 pot if he would call. Including blinds, $5.1 pot. I'm not sure what you mean here.. because I want him to call yes. My goal is to raise enough to maximize profit, but not too high because I want AQ/QQ/JJ etc to call..

@rabid dog: Come to think of it.. maybe this reraise is good afterall. If they push, probably AA (without a read to think otherwise). If they call however, and no A on the flop, I probably have the best hand.. again assuming they would have pushed with AA (which is almost a definite truth on 20NL). So then I know I can play for stacks.

Online, unless I have a hefty ammount of hands on my opp, and they show very tight with their VPIP and PFR, I am usually never folding Kk preflop.

I have however done it in a live game.

Originally Posted by jackvance

I am dealt KK. A guy raises $1.2 - in general if someone at 20NL raises 5BB+, they're sitting on a premium hand in the range of AA/KK/QQ/AK.. maybe JJ/AQ. I reraise another $1.2.

3x his bet. It defines his range better because it cuts his pot odds.

At 20NL never fold KK preflop.
Reconsider this position at 200NL with a good read.

Yes unfortunately the more aggressive (could be smart) or idiotic players will overplay the crap out of TT-QQ and AQ/AK preflop, which makes it pretty much impossible to lay down KK preflop at the lower levels.

Example in hand, the other day I had an EP raise, SB reraise to like 20bb and I folded QQ in the BB - SB turned up JJ eventually, and a Q flopped. I don't know if the decision I made is terrible in the long run, but it sure irked me that go-round as AT and JJ eventually ended up allin by the turn, both unimproved.

Originally Posted by DaHorror

Yes unfortunately the more aggressive (could be smart) or idiotic players will overplay the crap out of TT-QQ and AQ/AK preflop, which makes it pretty much impossible to lay down KK preflop at the lower levels.

Example in hand, the other day I had an EP raise, SB reraise to like 20bb and I folded QQ in the BB - SB turned up JJ eventually, and a Q flopped. I don't know if the decision I made is terrible in the long run, but it sure irked me that go-round as AT and JJ eventually ended up allin by the turn, both unimproved.

Just my completely novice opinion: if my read says AA, I lay this thing down all day long. Getting destacked on a perfect read is just silly. I'll catch 'em next time.

Best,
EW

Originally Posted by jackvance

@rabid dog: Come to think of it.. maybe this reraise is good afterall. If they push, probably AA (without a read to think otherwise). If they call however, and no A on the flop, I probably have the best hand.. again assuming they would have pushed with AA (which is almost a definite truth on 20NL). So then I know I can play for stacks.

My assumption was going on you raise, they reraise, and you raise over their raise, in which case he pushes and you call and are destacked. I probably would have just called their re raise to see where I was at on the flop. But yeah if they push after you re raise their raise then your probably beat. Its just a matter of whether you recognize it or not.

What usually does me in when Im delt KK. I raise, pone re raises, I push all in and he insta calls. My thinking is I dont want to get beat post flop, so I tend to get too aggressive pre flop with KK. I just cant get it through my thick skull that KK is not an auto win. Of course if I played limit, that would help rectify that problem probably.

I dont think you can fold KK at 20NL, maybe with a good read but i think you will find yourself with huge advantages enough to make it +ev

un-be-lievable.. it happened AGAIN!

This time I raise, he reraised, I call. Ok, cool. Flop was low blanks. Went to an all-in, lost with my KK vs AA.

Seriously, KK is the hand that has given me the most losses, no exaggeration. 3 full buy-ins in the last 5 days, and I haven't played more than 2 hours per day, and those have been basically my losses.. KK vs AA.

EDIT: ok had to do some math now. I played 8 hours the last 5 days. Always 2 tables 6max 20NL ring. That's about 1.6k hands. Getting KK while an opp has AA in 6max is expected to happen once every 9k hands or so. So I've had my fair share I guess. Ofcourse when this happened again just now, I tilted, and only managed to recollect my wits and quit playing after another $30 was tilted down the drain.. so now I've played 1.6k hands for $10 or 1.5ptBB/100. Okay.. sucky week so far. Guess 50NL will have to wait quite a bit longer..

i 100% agree with what most others say...folding kk pre flop without a REAL good read on the player (not the bet pattern) is uber weak at low-stakes. this is another example of "negative variance" which should be overly compensated for after enough hands.

kk is the second-nuts pre flop, and at low stakes like 5-25nl, i have seen (over 80k hands) many situations like this involving hands besides aa: maniacs with jqs, 33, 67s; or tt-qq lovers, ak pushers etc. this bet-pattern logic seems to imply routinely folding k high flushes or middle sets when facing a 4-bet all in from an unknown.

I have never folded KK preflop. I dont always reraise with it and ive folded it as an overpair on the flop. But never preflop.

layed cowboys down the other night. raised preflop. get called. flop brings an ace. bet, reraised, lay it down. probably facing pair of 9s or some shit. but it felt good to lay 'em down.

Here's a rule of thumb (even at low stakes). If someone raises/reraises TWICE PREFLOP they have AA, KK or QQ. If you have KK, then you can mark that off the list. That only leaves 2 options. Unfortunately, they generally have AA.

It's easy to talk about low stakes NL being fishy, but fish play weak, and don't re-reraise preflop. They will Push cold preflop with KT, but they won't raise it adn then (after being reraised), reraise again. They'll call.

The pattern is, you raise, they reraise, you reraise, they push. They have AA.

They raisae you reraise, they reraise (or push) they have AA.

When you see this betting pattern (unless there are 2 people who are going at each other over ego) SOMEBODY has AA at least 90% of the time. If it isn't YOU, then ...

You will see people push preflop and even push a raise All In preflop, but it will generaly be a cold push, or a push to a single raise. Inthat situation they could have a wider variety of hands, but - Raise, Rerraise, push (or some variation) means someone has pocket rockets.

Originally Posted by jukejointroach

layed cowboys down the other night. raised preflop. get called. flop brings an ace. bet, reraised, lay it down. probably facing pair of 9s or some shit. but it felt good to lay 'em down.

they are talking about pre-flop. Where KK is only beat by AA, and a huge favorite vs every other hand. Post flop, especially when there is an ace on the flop, it is a lot easyer to fold them, especially when there is lots of action

I think Aok hit the nail on the head here.

Originally Posted by aokrongly

It's easy to talk about low stakes NL being fishy, but fish play weak, and don't re-reraise preflop.

QFT

I knew I was picking something up and it was telling me "he has AA" but I couldn't justify for myself why and this might very well be it.

But yesterday I kept playing, and got my AA vs QQ battle. Big raising and reraising preflop, flop is blanks, went to an all-in. Ofcourse he got a Q on the turn. Yet another buy-in gone. At the *very same time* at the other table I went to an all-in with JJ vs AJ against a halfstack-guy who I knew didn't have anything stellar. My 70% to win there also backfired as he got his A, again on the turn. Talk about kicking me when I'm down!

So I've hit a big downswing this week. Puts quite a strain on my confidence, even though I "know" it's not really my fault perse.

(the little positive thing I can think of here, is that it'll give me a memory to keep myself level-headed when it goes my way)

after checking some hand histories, it seems like the general 3-4-bet AI pre flop=fold kk logic is good vs unknown normal/big stacks when the avg player is passive, but short stacks 3-4-bet all sorts of crap pre flop.

i still dont like the general idea of folding 2nd-nuts to a bet pattern, and would rather know more on the player, esp. if theyre a maniac or overvalue tt-qq/ak.

I dont fold KK preflop in microstakes unless I get crazy action from like 4 tight players preflop. I am confident that folding KK in microstakes against less than a 3 way all in from 3 incrdibly tight players ahead of you is a leak. Over my past 15k hands, KK has been second most profitable behind, yup you guess it, AA, and I dont fold it preflop. Have I been stacked KK vs AA all in preflop? Yes, but I have taken more stacks from JJ, QQ, AK, AQ, etc. to more than make up for it, losing KK against AA sucks, but simply because it has happened a few times recently means nothing, you are thinking too short term.

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

At 20NL never fold KK preflop.

At 1k nl, never fold KK preflop.

Reraising ranges go through the rooooooof.

And if they have AA, you can probably call and cite the implied odds of hitting a K.

Originally Posted by Renton

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

At 20NL never fold KK preflop.

You make the call, good fold preflop or bad fold preflop?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($24.65)
MP ($10.70)
Button ($24.25)
SB ($38.60)
BB ($40.95)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K, K. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
Hero raises to $0.75, 1 fold, Button calls $0.75, SB (poster) calls $0.65, BB raises to $4.5, Hero calls $4, Button calls $23.50 (All-In), SB folds, BB calls $36.20 (All-In), Hero folds.

Flop: ($70.70) 8, 3, 2 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: ($70.70) 9 (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($70.70) T (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $70.70

Originally Posted by Rabid Dog

Originally Posted by Renton

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

At 20NL never fold KK preflop.

You make the call, good fold preflop or bad fold preflop?

Well, there's a first time for everything. Even THAT fold is questionable depending on your opponents.

Kinda off topic, but do you standardly raise that weak at party 25nl? I always opened for 1.25. No one gives 75 cents respect. I know you want callers with KK but you don't want hands like T7o calling you.

no, Ive normally been raising $1.5 pre flop. This time I just thought I would mix it up a little, probably not a good thing to do, but I did.

Originally Posted by Renton

Originally Posted by Rabid Dog

Originally Posted by Renton

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

At 20NL never fold KK preflop.

You make the call, good fold preflop or bad fold preflop?

Well, there's a first time for everything. Even THAT fold is questionable depending on your opponents.

Results from my KK fold:

bmotds_ shows [ Ad, Ac ] a pair of aces.
mtgman33463 shows [ Ah, As ] a pair of aces.
bmotds_ wins $16.70 from side pot #1 with a pair of aces.
mtgman33463 wins $26 from the main pot with a pair of aces.
bmotds_ wins $26 from the main pot with a pair of aces.

Originally Posted by Rabid Dog

Originally Posted by Renton

Originally Posted by Rabid Dog

Originally Posted by Renton

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

At 20NL never fold KK preflop.

You make the call, good fold preflop or bad fold preflop?

Well, there's a first time for everything. Even THAT fold is questionable depending on your opponents.

Results from my KK fold:

bmotds_ shows [ Ad, Ac ] a pair of aces.
mtgman33463 shows [ Ah, As ] a pair of aces.
bmotds_ wins $16.70 from side pot #1 with a pair of aces.
mtgman33463 wins $26 from the main pot with a pair of aces.
bmotds_ wins $26 from the main pot with a pair of aces.

so results oriented

I guarantee you that I have seen and participated in many a threeway all in at Party 25nl against far worse holdings than AA.

Just today at Party 100nl, I raise to 3.5 UTG with AA. MP1 reraises to 10 and MP2 cold calls. Betting gets back to me and I think "fuck it, if they fold I am taking down a 22bb pot, lets give it a shot." I push and MP1 calls off his 100bb stack with 88. Keep in mind I have a fairly tight (14%vpip/8%pfr) image at this table.

People are fucking nuts, and the case is even more provable at .10/.25.

You guys can say all you want, but I've never seen a big stack guy on 10NL or 20NL go all-in WITHOUT pocket aces. And I mean that. Plenty of smallstacks all-in with every hand imaginable, but never the bigstacks.

Today I had AA, and got into a reraising fight preflop. I thought "yes finally!!". He had AA too.

What the hell is going on in here?

Why is there even a discussion of folding KK preflop at 25NL or 10NL.
How tight is tight?

I'm not very good at poker but i am raising and reraising KK as much possible pre flop. I don't care if the oppenent shows me his AA, I'm dumb and doing it.
I'm not afraid to pay off Aces at 25NL.

just found all the little smile dudes and needed to play with them and don't fold cowboys
good luck
flomo

Originally Posted by flomo

I'm not afraid to pay off Aces at 25NL.

Once happens to you for 3 buy-ins in 1.6k hands, I bet you'll come back on that..

Originally Posted by Renton

People are fucking nuts, and the case is even more provable at .10/.25.

I dont deny this, although I dont agree either with the analagy that you never lay down KK pre flop at 20NL. I simply posted that particular hand to show that laying down KK pre flop can be done if thought out. When the BB raised $4.5 I figured him for QQ or JJ maybe AK so I called his raise. But when the button re raised all in and then the BB came over the top of him with a raise all in, I knew one of them had AA and it was best for me to step aside and let them have at it. Never in my wildest dreams did I think both of them would have AA along with me having KK on a 6 max table. But I guess it does happen. Anyhow, any way you look at it, this was a good laydown of KK for me.

Originally Posted by Rabid Dog

Originally Posted by Renton

People are fucking nuts, and the case is even more provable at .10/.25.

I dont deny this, although I dont agree either with the analagy that you never lay down KK pre flop at 20NL. I simply posted that particular hand to show that laying down KK pre flop can be done if thought out. When the BB raised $4.5 I figured him for QQ or JJ maybe AK so I called his raise. But when the button re raised all in and then the BB came over the top of him with a raise all in, I knew one of them had AA and it was best for me to step aside and let them have at it. Never in my wildest dreams did I think both of them would have AA along with me having KK on a 6 max table. But I guess it does happen. Anyhow, any way you look at it, this was a good laydown of KK for me.

I am not bashing your laydown. The results spoke for themselves. What I am saying is that if that hand happens in a vacuum a million times, each with different (but typical) Party 25nl villains, flops, turns, and rivers, and you make the call every time, its probably +EV.

Also check this out.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

1,370,754 games 0.109 secs 12,575,724 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 39.7850 % 02.04% 37.75% { AcAd }
Hand 2: 39.7850 % 02.04% 37.75% { AhAs }
Hand 3: 20.4300 % 20.29% 00.14% { KdKh }

You would have had 20.4% equity in a pot you'd have contributed 33% to. You don't even lose that much when you make this call. Remember if you spike a K they are practically drawing dead.



Also, Jack, you don't have nearly the sample size to make they assertion that bigstacks at 25nl never go all in preflop w/o AA. Donks can acquire big stacks too. It happens all the time. They probably acquire that stack by sucking out on AA preflop with 66 all in (that happened to me a few days ago (AT 100NL!!)).

Renton, I agree that you are probably going to win more than you will loose by not folding KK. I just wanted to post a hand that showed KK should be laid down in certain situations. There have been a couple in this thread, I dont think you was one of them, I would have to go back and check. But a couple of folks said you never lay down KK at 20 and 25NL. I've laid KK down 3 times and each time was the right laydown. I've also went all in with KK only to be up against AA and loose, and sometimes win. I've also taken a few stacks with KK when others thought their mid pp were good to go all in on.

Im not saying you lay down KK every time. What Im saying is to tell someone at 20NL or 25NL you never lay down KK pre flop isnt right. There are situations.

Originally Posted by Renton

each with different (but typical) Party 25nl villains, flops, turns, and rivers, and you make the call every time, its probably +EV.

I so have to go play at party..

Also, Jack, you don't have nearly the sample size to make they assertion that bigstacks at 25nl never go all in preflop w/o AA. Donks can acquire big stacks too. It happens all the time. They probably acquire that stack by sucking out on AA preflop with 66 all in (that happened to me a few days ago (AT 100NL!!)).

I don't really know what to say. Yes, ofcourse on occasion a typical smallstack will acquire a fortune and still play his old smallstack ways of throwing all-in with a wide range of hands, but you can pick those off easily. The typical bigstacks however, atleast on unibet where I play, simply only do this with AA. Maybe KK too, but if you're holding the KK then they will have AA most of the time. You can talk about sample sizes being too small.. but if I've never seen this betting pattern with anything but AA for all my time there.. I'm gonna fold KK..

If I were to go to party or something and see people do this with AK/QQ, ok.. then I'm pushing with KK too.

I guess i have a different philosophy for my bankroll. Once I buyin to a game, I no longer consider the $25 buyin as part of my br. that money is used to try to get more money or going to one of my oppenents. Losing a few buyins from KK vs AA just happens, but not enough to fold KK preflop.

Are we going to start folding Aces next.

Originally Posted by flomo

Are we going to start folding Aces next.

Yes it's obviously a great idea to fold the hand that dominates every possible other hand.

Ok, when I'm wrong I'll admit.. people do go ape on other hands too, noticed it yesterday and today. But it depends on your read. The typical "rock" with a big stack.. the kind of guy that sits at a limit he is basically to good for, so as to grind it for money, he will only do this with AA/KK.

Just now, I had pocket Qs. After I raise, this other guy reraises me 35BB. Normally I'd fold the ladies here, but something didn't add up here. I had seen this guy slowplay total monsters to the river and then minraise to take "some profit". When a person like that goes ape like this, it's USUALLY not with a *real* monster, but a hand he has doubts on. It's weird logic, but I've seen it enough. A real monster where he would have 100% faith in, he would slowplay it most likely.

So I called. Problem was, other guy behind me called too. That was bad. Flop is all blanks, and our reraiser-guy pushes. Against an opponent who I have pegged as a rock, I'll fold here. AA/KK is too likely. But I dunno.. I felt like I could take a chance here. In part I also wanted to see if my instinct were justified. So I call. Third guy called too, but after a long hesitation. Hm. Turn is another blank, I push, he folds. First guy flipped AK.. haha


That being said, I do stand by the assertion that there are definately situations where you should fold KK. Reads are golden here.

Just lost $30 when I called an all in with KK. The all in had AK so I had him beat pre flop, he just hit an Ace on the turn.

According to Poker Tracker KK is my 4th winningest hand. It goes AA, TT, QQ, KK. I checked JJ and its a huge looser for me.

Originally Posted by Rabid Dog

Just lost $30 when I called an all in with KK. The all in had AK so I had him beat pre flop, he just hit an Ace on the turn.

Yeah this is more of a bad beat, you're the 70% favorite here. In general if you can put your opp on AA/KK/QQ/AK to push all-in preflop, calling with KK is +EV. Very important to note is that AK is dealt 32 ways, while AA/KK/QQ 12 ways.

So, ignoring KK vs KK:

12/56 * 18% + 12/56 * 82% + 32/56 * 70%= 61,5% to win.

According to Poker Tracker KK is my 4th winningest hand. It goes AA, TT, QQ, KK. I checked JJ and its a huge looser for me.

I don't have PT but from the top of my head, KK/QQ are my biggest winners over the last 2k hands. AK has been good to me too, probably third. AA is total break-even since I got it ONCE in 2k hands and it ended up in an AA vs AA stalemate.

My poker tracker stats are only over a range of 9k hands though, so they are not 100% true. Ive only had PT for a couple months and been playing since August 05. I got PT after Party did their upgrade I believe. So I dont think the old Party HH's are included in these stats. Plus none of my Stars stats are included since they are on a different computer.

Ugh reading that makes me feel so newb. I play poker since march 8 and online for money since march 15. So my "sample sizes" are no doubt a lot worse than yours.. for one thing they're also from my head mostly.

And I finally got paid off for AA! $10! Weee .. it had been so long it had forgotten what it felt like to get AA hehe..

Ofcourse.. I just also moved back to 20NL and took a nice 3 buy-in plummet downward. Yikes. Started off with the bigstack bully of the table trying to "test" me by reraising me with crap (I had the goods) and catching a bullshit runner taking my stack. Pf. A bit of frustration and adjustment problems made way with 2 more buy-ins. So this AA was very welcome Put the roll back to $180.

Originally Posted by jackvance

Ofcourse.. I just also moved back to 20NL... ...Put the roll back to $180.

play with more than 9 buyins. You are asking for trouble.

Originally Posted by Renton

play with more than 9 buyins. You are asking for trouble.

I had 11.5 buy-ins when I moved. My personal threshold for 10NL and 20NL is 10 buy-ins b/c I have confidence in my skill there. For MTTs and SNGs or higher limits I wouldn't play under "standard" roll requirements b/c I don't have that confidence there.

Originally Posted by jackvance

Originally Posted by Renton

play with more than 9 buyins. You are asking for trouble.

I had 11.5 buy-ins when I moved. My personal threshold for 10NL and 20NL is 10 buy-ins b/c I have confidence in my skill there. For MTTs and SNGs or higher limits I wouldn't play under "standard" roll requirements b/c I don't have that confidence there.

Its not a matter of confidence. 10 buyin swings occur to the best of us. When I first moved to 100nl I had an 8 buyin downswing (not that I am that good, but I probably have as much of an edge over 100nl as you have over 20nl). Thankfully, I moved up with 25 buyins so it didn't discourage me too much.

I really think this is something every person has to decide on his own.

Originally Posted by jackvance

I really think this is something every person has to decide on his own.

most of the people who decide it on their own go broke...

still. Goodluck.

Originally Posted by Rabid Dog

Is this a good fold

One time I got KK and three of us got all-in. Donks showed QQ and JJ, JJ won the pot.

So maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

Originally Posted by sejje

Originally Posted by Rabid Dog

Is this a good fold

One time I got KK and three of us got all-in. Donks showed QQ and JJ, JJ won the pot.

So maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

Well like the results show further up, it was a good fold. The other 2 players were holding AA. You cant just hold on to KK because its KK. If your read on the table tells you other wise then sometimes its ok to fold KK pre flop. Im not saying you want to fold it to every single player showing aggression, but some players you do. I'm also not saying you want to fold KK everytime someone pushes you all in preflop, that would be rediculus really and would loose you lots of money. But what I am saying is that its just not right to say you never fold KK preflop simply because you are playing 20NL or 25NL. There are times when you should, or you end up wishing you had.

I am a winning player and I have just had my second 13-buyin downswing. Now I don't claim to have been playing my A-game the whole time, but it is *mainly* down to happenstance.

Perhaps, Jack, you just need for it to happen to you before you'll acknowledge BR management is important whatever skill and financial levels you're playing at. Everything in poker is learnt through experience.

Originally Posted by biondino

Perhaps, Jack, you just need for it to happen to you before you'll acknowledge BR management is important whatever skill and financial levels you're playing at.

Well, I do acknowledge that. If I didn't, I would probably have blown my BR already at 50NL whenever I was on a high from a good run at 20NL.. or I'd be doing full-time HU now. The only difference is I don't necessarily follow the rules posted here, but instead I use rules I make for myself based on my own experience and insight (or lack thereof).

Aaaah just now was pretty exciting. Got sucked out on a $56 pot by this calling station donk with EXTREME luck. At one point he was sitting at $126 and he seriously couldn't play worth shit. Then I started, like a total idiot, to focus on getting my money back from him, obsess over it is probably a better word, but the cards didn't come.. and I kept seeing him pat off large $$ with air hands to everyone but me. (come to think of it.. the money I lost was actually money I had taken from the donk a bit earlier, lol) So I kept rebuying, but the losses started to accumulate and actually offset my double-up at the other table. BR down to $150. When my head started to hurt from aggravation, I started to realize.. "Jack, man.. you can't FORCE the cards. It's better to just keep playing your game.. there are more donks like this, they come a dime a dozen, stop focussing so much on this one! Just do the right thing and in the long run it'll all be good. That's how it always goes, so stay calm now." So that did calm me down a little and I stopped my maniacal chase to get his dough.

Then at the very end I got into this one show-off vs the donk, $40 pot, and I said to myself "if I lose this it's back to 10NL". I had KK on a board with an A and two 5s. I called his big river raise.. and he had nothing! After that it all started to go better again.. BR now up to a square $200 or 10 buy-ins.

No, see.. if I had played according to the proper rules instead of my own, I would have missed all this fun and excitement haha

Originally Posted by jackvance

You guys can say all you want, but I've never seen a big stack guy on 10NL or 20NL go all-in WITHOUT pocket aces. And I mean that. Plenty of smallstacks all-in with every hand imaginable, but never the bigstacks.

Today I had AA, and got into a reraising fight preflop. I thought "yes finally!!". He had AA too.

Well exactly how many thousands of hands have you played? I've seen it. 66. $80 stack on a 25NL table. And he lost it all to someone who had him outchipped.

Originally Posted by jackvance

Originally Posted by biondino

Perhaps, Jack, you just need for it to happen to you before you'll acknowledge BR management is important whatever skill and financial levels you're playing at.

Well, I do acknowledge that. If I didn't, I would probably have blown my BR already at 50NL whenever I was on a high from a good run at 20NL.. or I'd be doing full-time HU now. The only difference is I don't necessarily follow the rules posted here, but instead I use rules I make for myself based on my own experience and insight (or lack thereof).

Well yes, that's exactly what I'm saying - you'll probably need to go broke to learn this lesson too.

The thing is, I know for sure that the BR issue is a fundamental problem for you, whether you accept that or not. The reason I know this is because whenever you talk about a big win or a big loss, you always define it in BR terms.

Now, look at the posts of relatively successful and experienced players here at all levels - they never talk about the effect of a hand on their bankroll because they have a big enough bankroll for their stakes to render such things irrelevant. The effect of a single play on your BR shouldn't matter, but clearly it does to you. This is a big, big tell - learn from it!!

Well, you are 100% right, but try to look at it from my perspective for a second. I already cashed out $200. Ok, I needed the money, but it's not a life-and-death need or anything. If the worst comes to being, I can deposit it back into my roll.

The thing is, and this is for me personally, because I *know* how I am.. not sitting on a totally comfortable BR motivates me. It forces me to play my very best game, and improve on it asap when I lose a little here and there. If I were to sit on a huge roll, there's a very real chance it would put me in a lull where I just don't care anymore because everything I do seems so insignificant in relation to my roll.

If you're the kind of person who needs to sit on a huge roll, ie on a lot of certainty, to bring the best out of you, that's obviously different. But not everyone is like that. I need a bit of pressure.

That is not to say ofcourse I'm gonna be stupid and gamble it all on one hand. I need *some* pressure, not insane risks. I've never in my life played slots or bingo or the lottery.. I just don't like to gamble.

Like yesterday, when I moved to 20NL and was down to $150.. got into a $40 pot. Had I lost it, I would have gone back to 10NL. No questions asked. I told this to myself before I pushed the last bit of my stack, and I meant it.

While I 100% agree that an overfixation on the results RUINS your game - trust me, I've lived it and felt it - please don't forget the motivational aspect of not sitting on a huge pile of certainty.

That's why I said this is something everyone has to decide for themselves.

Clearly I don't disagree with you about what is the best motivating factor, as it is different for everyone. I am grossly overrolled for the levels I play at, and I think this helps me stay level-headed, but I can see why presuure works for you.

However, I think it's a slightly false situation. As you say, you have withdrawn $200 which you would be able to deposit should you bust out. In real terms, therefore, that should be added to your bankroll, and you should base your decisions on which level to play on that. It's like there is a little bit of pressure, but you have a confort blanket in case it all gets too nasty. Which is great, but technically, I think you should acknowledge that it is part of your BR - apart from anything else, it'll get people like me off your back!

Originally Posted by biondino

Clearly I don't disagree with you about what is the best motivating factor, as it is different for everyone. I am grossly overrolled for the levels I play at, and I think this helps me stay level-headed, but I can see why presuure works for you.

Yeah, it's different for each person. I know very well that there are people who need more security to perform better, it's often the opposite for me. (ofcourse I'm luckily not one of those people who loves to gamble like a maniac)

However, I think it's a slightly false situation. As you say, you have withdrawn $200 which you would be able to deposit should you bust out. In real terms, therefore, that should be added to your bankroll, and you should base your decisions on which level to play on that.

Hm, I kinda have to disagree here. I'll be damned if I have to redeposit that back. I really need it, it would be more of an emergency situation. Besides, if this would be the case, everyone would have a bigger roll than they say.. I mean, it's not like you'll be bankrupt for your entire life if you bust out right?

Which is great, but technically, I think you should acknowledge that it is part of your BR - apart from anything else, it'll get people like me off your back!

haha

But seriously, to me, what I have on unibet *is* my whole BR. So the $241 I have now I consider to be everything. Yeah, it's gone up again. Hit some softer tables now as opposed to yesterday. Less intensive, don't need to focus a lot, but ofcourse better for the $$. But 2-tabling 6max while also posting here simultaneously is kinda fatiguing so I'm gonna take a break now

jackvance
you should move your bankroll to a different site
-easier opponents(i suck and still come out ahead)
-more games (play HU at lower stakes)
-earn easy bonuses(free money)
empire,casino.net,partypoker,paradise,pokerstars,b odog, pacific are all good

just a suggeston to increase your br more quickly
good luck
flomo

Originally Posted by flomo

jackvance
you should move your bankroll to a different site
-easier opponents(i suck and still come out ahead)
-more games (play HU at lower stakes)
-earn easy bonuses(free money)
empire,casino.net,partypoker,paradise,pokerstars,b odog, pacific are all good

just a suggeston to increase your br more quickly
good luck
flomo

Thx for the advice. I do sometimes feel like where I play isn't totally the same as what other people report. Like two days ago, on 10NL, two people folded understraight to my overstraight. And all I did was reraise em the pot.. I mean, at 10NL you'd expect atleast ONE PERSON to call with a straight, no? Geez

But I've been trying to get some money on neteller so I can scummage some other sites.. I read here that people double their roll from bonusses alone, I mean, that's sick. I get zero bonusses at unibet. And the abundance of loose players, I really want to find those! The problem is ofcourse the money. My roll is now at $260 (yeah, up another buy-in since my last posting, lol) so maybe if I can reach $300 some time in the future I can split off $100 and use that as a base to go site-hopping.

I looked over the list of sites a few days ago, but I felt totally lost, so thx for the list you made, I think I'll use that.

if you are going to breakup your br then i suggest you move it to casino.net. flat bonus of $100(deposit $100, earn $100) for initial deposit, so you won't waste a good bonus at another site like party or paradise
the players at casino.net are extremely loose, be careful

checkout easyt's bonus guide in the online poker room forum and the discussion thread for it

***** Hand History for Game 4076776726 *****
$100 NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, April 24, 05:52:33 ET 2006
Table Yacht Club (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 5: William42973 ( $159.43 )
Seat 10: BCL2partyp ( $44.75 )
Seat 6: Renton555 ( $101 )
Seat 3: Patchinb ( $53.10 )
Seat 4: Frog_Hopper ( $97.65 )
Seat 1: T__K__O ( $93.70 )
Seat 2: NikkoHan ( $120 )
Seat 8: JurassicMJ ( $21 )
Seat 9: jenblue1220 ( $100 )
JurassicMJ posts small blind [$0.50].
jenblue1220 posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Renton555 [ Kh Kc ]
BCL2partyp folds.
T__K__O folds.
NikkoHan folds.
Patchinb raises [$3].
Frog_Hopper folds.
William42973 folds.
Renton555 raises [$9].
JurassicMJ folds.
jenblue1220 folds.
Patchinb raises [$17].
Renton555 raises [$78.67].
Patchinb is all-In.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4d, 9c, 7s ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3h ]
** Dealing River ** [ Jc ]
Renton555 shows [ Kh, Kc ] a pair of kings.
Patchinb doesn't show [ Qc, Qd ] a pair of queens.
Renton555 wins $34.57 from side pot #1 with a pair of kings.
Renton555 wins $104.70 from the main pot with a pair of kings.

if they are tight fold KK to a re-re-raise without set odds.

dont call preflop with KK at thoes limits, let them tell you that they have AA if they are tight, let them go broke with AK/QQ/JJ/TT if they are total <><.

Originally Posted by flomo

if you are going to breakup your br then i suggest you move it to casino.net. flat bonus of $100(deposit $100, earn $100) for initial deposit, so you won't waste a good bonus at another site like party or paradise
the players at casino.net are extremely loose, be careful

checkout easyt's bonus guide in the online poker room forum and the discussion thread for it

I don't see this neat little game called Hold 'em on Casino.net

ekillian

there are 2 areas of casino.net, the casino side and the poker side. click on the casino.net link here in this post. In the upper right hand corner there are tabs for the poker and casino. the default is for the casino side so you will have to switch to the poker side and download that software.

goood luck
flomo