folding kings preflop

i was just wondering if any of you ever fold kings preflop?

under 150bbs nope, and its not close.

i was wondering because they seem to run into aces....ALOT..

GAMBOOOOOOL

Nah

Originally Posted by whopper1967

i was wondering because they seem to run into aces....ALOT..

if you opponet doesnt have AA just once, you just made a -ev decision. do u c y?

I fold KK preflop for 100bb's a lot at fulltilt vs. people I know are nits. GASP!

martin, you are the only person i know that would admit that. i guess you are the only "honest" poker player.

OP, if you dont have a super read....dont even think about it. i have been 100% sure sometimes, made the call anyway, been wrong, and won the hand.

you need to be more than 100% sure.

Originally Posted by Chopper

martin, you are the only person i know that would admit that. i guess you are the only "honest" poker player.

OP, if you dont have a super read....dont even think about it. i have been 100% sure sometimes, made the call anyway, been wrong, and won the hand.

you need to be more than 100% sure.

I'd just rather not take the gamble vs. known nits. Sure they could have QQ, but they could just as easily (prob more easily) have AA. I just don't like taking 50/50's (in reality it's prob worse) for 100bb's.

i did it once and was right, but in a vacuum you never fold

i've folded it 5 times. 3/5 i saw a showdown and I was behind AA everytime.

I've folded it once or twice. The one time I'm 100% sure I did it was pre-UIGEA, at 50NL, on Prima. Still cracks me up to think about it.

Once without much thought.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

102,738,240 games 0.005 secs 20,547,648,000 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 37.205% 32.18% 05.03% 33058446 5164878.00 { KK }
Hand 1: 62.795% 57.77% 05.03% 59350038 5164878.00 { KK+, QdQh, AKs }


specific holding of QQ gives us a greatly reduced chance of them being in his range, but acknowledging that they exist. it could also be KK sometimes. and not all the time, but maybe around 1 in 4 times, it can be AK. hence, the AKs.

i am never more certain than this, even against "rocks."

same thread different month

Originally Posted by Chopper

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

102,738,240 games 0.005 secs 20,547,648,000 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 37.205% 32.18% 05.03% 33058446 5164878.00 { KK }
Hand 1: 62.795% 57.77% 05.03% 59350038 5164878.00 { KK+, QdQh, AKs }


specific holding of QQ gives us a greatly reduced chance of them being in his range, but acknowledging that they exist. it could also be KK sometimes. and not all the time, but maybe around 1 in 4 times, it can be AK. hence, the AKs.

i am never more certain than this, even against "rocks."

most nits where i play don't get all in with AK preflop. also, i would make AK a specific holding before i make QQ one.

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

same thread different month

i hear ya lol

now we are nit-picking over a few percentage points. i was just pointing out that its not 80/20 like most people automatically think.

my range is 60/40. yours, with AK specifically instead of QQ...is a coin flip. if both AK and QQ are specific its 67/35ish.

no one should be laying off KK pre flop. at least, not at lower stakes for under 200 bb's.....period.

and, i dont get it in w/ AK very often, either. but, i see those who do. granted, its not the nittier ones.

I folded AA PF last night. Oh wait, thats a different subject. I somehow accidentally clicked fold to any bet. Grr.

For me its still a 3 or 4 bet push pf, but I have not seen anything but aces on the calls for some time. On the other hand, I have seen KK to AA happen at slightly less frequency than quads.

Last night, two KK push calls facing Aces both times, but at least the one I lost was a half stack (fnord adjusment) and on the other I spiked the K for a full stack :P

Originally Posted by Ltrain

For me its still a 3 or 4 bet push pf, but I have not seen anything but aces on the calls for some time. On the other hand, I have seen KK to AA happen at slightly less frequency than quads.

Last night, two KK push calls facing Aces both times, but at least the one I lost was a half stack (fnord adjusment) and on the other I spiked the K for a full stack :P

i used to do this with KK, as well. but, now i do the 3bet, and call a 4bet...looking for a non-A flop or a K. when i find that, i go to the hilt. but, i call any shove...i just dont shove KK unless i know the villain will stack off lightly. i kind of like to call smallish 3bets with any pp, though, knowing it may be KK+ and they cant fold it.

but, thats a topic for another day.

I have no problem folding KK early in a tournament if I am facing an all-in or HUGE re-raise pre-flop. No big deal. Otherwise, I am going to call a raise or re-raise to see where I'm at. NEVER get busted with KK pre-flop early in a tournament. That's a major NO NO.

Originally Posted by curtom

I have no problem folding KK early in a tournament if I am facing an all-in or HUGE re-raise pre-flop. No big deal. Otherwise, I am going to call a raise or re-raise to see where I'm at. NEVER get busted with KK pre-flop early in a tournament. That's a major NO NO.

bad.

Originally Posted by curtom

I have no problem folding KK early in a tournament if I am facing an all-in or HUGE re-raise pre-flop. No big deal. Otherwise, I am going to call a raise or re-raise to see where I'm at. NEVER get busted with KK pre-flop early in a tournament. That's a major NO NO.

whatever. i will go busto with pride when i have KK...at any point of a tourney.

Something I am going to be looking at doing in the next few days (whenever my next day off of work is) and I challenge everyone else to do it.

Go through your DB of KK hands, search for every time you got yourself all in Pre Flop, against people with at least 75% + of a full stack, and see how often you are NOT against AA.

I think you will find that AA is the single biggest hand you are up against and that the whole "Never fold KK Pre Flop for 100 BB" is something that should be held to Live games, opponent specific and pre UIGEA (or however it's abbreviated).

I could be wrong, but that's why I'm going to be looking at my database.

Originally Posted by curtom

I have no problem folding KK early in a tournament if I am facing an all-in or HUGE re-raise pre-flop. No big deal. Otherwise, I am going to call a raise or re-raise to see where I'm at. NEVER get busted with KK pre-flop early in a tournament. That's a major NO NO.

sorry bud but that is definitely not a major no-no by any serious tourney player's standards.

Originally Posted by FppPro

Something I am going to be looking at doing in the next few days (whenever my next day off of work is) and I challenge everyone else to do it.

Go through your DB of KK hands, search for every time you got yourself all in Pre Flop, against people with at least 75% + of a full stack, and see how often you are NOT against AA.

I think you will find that AA is the single biggest hand you are up against and that the whole "Never fold KK Pre Flop for 100 BB" is something that should be held to Live games, opponent specific and pre UIGEA (or however it's abbreviated).

I could be wrong, but that's why I'm going to be looking at my database.

/thread

POKERSTARS GAME #13106877679: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.05/$0.10) - 2007/11/07 - 23:06:07 (ET)
Table 'Gawain II' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: blademann ($13.20 in chips)
Seat 3: rivers22 ($9.30 in chips)
Seat 4: Sergio_Van_H ($4.50 in chips)
Seat 5: PiS.psm ($12.10 in chips)
Seat 7: StAug92 ($4.15 in chips)
Seat 8: mojo3120 ($20.40 in chips)
Seat 9: LolTrappedU ($13.60 in chips)
mojo3120: posts small blind $0.05
LolTrappedU: posts big blind $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to LolTrappedU [Kc Kd]
blademann: calls $0.10
rivers22: folds
Sergio_Van_H: calls $0.10
PiS.psm: folds
StAug92: folds
mojo3120: folds
LolTrappedU: raises $0.50 to $0.60
blademann: raises $1.20 to $1.80
Sergio_Van_H: folds
LolTrappedU: raises $11.80 to $13.60 and is all-in
blademann: calls $11.40 and is all-in
*** FLOP *** [Jh 9c 7h]
*** TURN *** [Jh 9c 7h] [9d]
*** RIVER *** [Jh 9c 7h 9d] [Th]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
LolTrappedU: shows [Kc Kd] (two pair, Kings and Nines)
blademann: mucks hand
LolTrappedU collected $25.25 from pot
Texxas Tom joins the table at seat #6
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $26.55 | Rake $1.30
Board [Jh 9c 7h 9d Th]
Seat 1: blademann mucked [Kh As]
Seat 3: rivers22 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Sergio_Van_H folded before Flop
Seat 5: PiS.psm folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: StAug92 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: mojo3120 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: LolTrappedU (big blind) showed [Kc Kd] and won ($25.25) with two pair, Kings and Nines

/end thread for the 6max players

POKERSTARS GAME #10357007539: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.25/$0.50) - 2007/06/09 - 21:29:32 (ET)
Table 'Italia' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: LosLaba ($73.35 in chips)
Seat 2: DexyTP ($77.70 in chips)
Seat 4: Ceaster ($10.20 in chips)
Seat 5: LolTrappedU ($136.25 in chips)
Seat 6: snoko ($51.20 in chips)
snoko: posts small blind $0.25
LosLaba: posts big blind $0.50
tuckstone197: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to LolTrappedU [Kh Kd]
DexyTP: folds
Ceaster: folds
LolTrappedU: raises $1.50 to $2
snoko: raises $8 to $10
LosLaba: folds
LolTrappedU: raises $50 to $60
snoko: calls $41.20 and is all-in
*** FLOP *** [8c 5c 4d]
*** TURN *** [8c 5c 4d] [2s]
*** RIVER *** [8c 5c 4d 2s] [8h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
snoko: shows [Ad 6c] (a pair of Eights)
LolTrappedU: shows [Kh Kd] (two pair, Kings and Eights)
LolTrappedU collected $100.90 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $102.90 | Rake $2
Board [8c 5c 4d 2s 8h]
Seat 1: LosLaba (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: DexyTP folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Ceaster folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: LolTrappedU (button) showed [Kh Kd] and won ($100.90) with two pair, Kings and Eights
Seat 6: snoko (small blind) showed [Ad 6c] and lost with a pair of Eights

Originally Posted by FppPro

Something I am going to be looking at doing in the next few days (whenever my next day off of work is) and I challenge everyone else to do it.

Go through your DB of KK hands, search for every time you got yourself all in Pre Flop, against people with at least 75% + of a full stack, and see how often you are NOT against AA.

I think you will find that AA is the single biggest hand you are up against and that the whole "Never fold KK Pre Flop for 100 BB" is something that should be held to Live games, opponent specific and pre UIGEA (or however it's abbreviated).

I could be wrong, but that's why I'm going to be looking at my database.

so why do 25/50nl pros say getting it all in with KK preflop versus AA is 'standard' ?

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

if you opponet doesnt have AA just once, you just made a -ev decision. do u c y?

I've seen this said before but I don't understand because if your opponent doesn't have AA once but has it 5 other times you just made a -ev decision even though you were right this time. I've also said this on 2p2 but I've got 165k hands at the $50 and every time I've faced huge preflop action with KK (w/>75bbs) it's been AA with the exception of 2 times out of 27.

This one is just from 2 nights ago. zomg fold.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG+1 ($28)
MP1 ($68.10)
MP2 ($107.20)
Hero ($99.50)
CO ($124.55)
Button ($106.80)
SB ($63.50)
BB ($109.75)
UTG ($122.15)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K, K.
UTG raises to $4, 2 folds, MP2 raises to $7, 5 folds, UTG calls $3.

Flop: ($15.50) 7, 4, 5 (2 players)
UTG checks, MP2 checks.

Turn: ($15.50) 9 (2 players)
UTG bets $7, MP2 calls $7.

River: ($29.50) J (2 players)
UTG bets $27, MP2 raises to $60, UTG calls $33.

Final Pot: $149.50

Results below:
UTG has Kd Ks (one pair, kings).
MP2 has As Ah (one pair, aces).
Outcome: MP2 wins $149.50.

Originally Posted by FppPro

Something I am going to be looking at doing in the next few days (whenever my next day off of work is) and I challenge everyone else to do it.

Go through your DB of KK hands, search for every time you got yourself all in Pre Flop, against people with at least 75% + of a full stack, and see how often you are NOT against AA.

I think you will find that AA is the single biggest hand you are up against and that the whole "Never fold KK Pre Flop for 100 BB" is something that should be held to Live games, opponent specific and pre UIGEA (or however it's abbreviated).

I could be wrong, but that's why I'm going to be looking at my database.

ive got 1 in 10 occasions making calling off my stack always +ev.

I think the times you stack off with KK against AA will equal the times everyone else stacks off with KK against *your* AA. Thus they wash, and you can't really lose money doing it.

I just got it in with KK vs A9s and 77 for a full buyin each @100NL, AIPF.. and you want me to fold kings?

Originally Posted by euphoricism

I think the times you stack off with KK against AA will equal the times everyone else stacks off with KK against *your* AA. Thus they wash, and you can't really lose money doing it.

Imagine if you could think about what your opponents had instead of the fact that you have KK how it won't be a "wash" and you will come out ahead.

obv

Originally Posted by euphoricism

I think the times you stack off with KK against AA will equal the times everyone else stacks off with KK against *your* AA. Thus they wash, and you can't really lose money doing it.

Or you could avoid stacking off vs AA and still get their stack with your AA

have i ever folded KK pre flop? hmm, probably not, but i much rather have KJ suited than plain KK, Mathematically KK is a real good hand, but it just seems to let me down so much so that i almoast preffer QQ, no logic to it i know but hey im a noob

Originally Posted by EvIlK3Rn3L

have i ever folded KK pre flop? hmm, probably not, but i much rather have KJ suited than plain KK, Mathematically KK is a real good hand, but it just seems to let me down so much so that i almoast preffer QQ, no logic to it i know but hey im a noob

Don't worry, I used to think like that and prolly everyone did once, but you need to cut that out of your game fast if you want to win.

I've never folded KK once pre online.

With my image now-a-days i can't even lay down JJ.

Knowing that 2 king is with u, less chace to someone have Kx, and more Ax, even AA.

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