Folding AA Preflop.

I just read a great article Lee Jones wrote for cardplayer magazine showing someone who folded AA preflop with no action in front of them.

Check it out

Great observation IMO.

Yea I read that a while back. Theres plenty of reasons youd fold AA preflop in a tournament (all of them are pretty rare). Pretty much all of them are to do with the payout structure meaning that you dont actually need to get more chips to make more money.

Just dont fold them in a cash game.

Originally Posted by Pelion

Yea I read that a while back. Theres plenty of reasons youd fold AA preflop in a tournament (all of them are pretty rare). Pretty much all of them are to do with the payout structure meaning that you dont actually need to get more chips to make more money.

Just dont fold them in a cash game.

Name more than 3 reasons to fold AA preflop and I'll be a happy man. The scenario above is 1. What else? Would you fold AA on the bubble to make more money? I hope not.

Originally Posted by givememyleg

Originally Posted by Pelion

Yea I read that a while back. Theres plenty of reasons youd fold AA preflop in a tournament (all of them are pretty rare). Pretty much all of them are to do with the payout structure meaning that you dont actually need to get more chips to make more money.

Just dont fold them in a cash game.

Name more than 3 reasons to fold AA preflop and I'll be a happy man. The scenario above is 1. What else? Would you fold AA on the bubble to make more money? I hope not.

If I was second chip leader way ahead of everyone else and the chip leader was allin and the payout structure was such that you get paid a fair bit just by getting to the money? Well....I probably wouldnt but I probably should.

Also Sklansky gives an example where you are on the bubble bullying midstacks and steal up a huge stack, and a shortstack pushes. You see AA, but decide that the value you pick up by calling him is less than the value you expect to gain by continuing to steal so you fold the best hand.

There was also a weird tournament on saint patricks day where the "leprechaun" had messed up the prize pool so certain places paid very high.

e.g.

1=$50
2=$30
3=$20
4=$10
5=$40
6=$2.50


In this case, if there were 5 players left and I had a very short stack I can imagine pushinbg with AA and then mucking on the river after he turns his hand over and saying "awww you got me".

Originally Posted by Pelion

If I was second chip leader way ahead of everyone else and the chip leader was allin and the payout structure was such that you get paid a fair bit just by getting to the money? Well....I probably wouldnt but I probably should.

I just don't get that. If I was second in chips, and the big stack was AI I would beat him into the pot with AA. At worst he is 20% to win the hand, and you are 80% to win. That means 80% of the time you will have a MONSTER stack... why in earth would you fold here?

Originally Posted by Pelion

Also Sklansky gives an example where you are on the bubble bullying midstacks and steal up a huge stack, and a shortstack pushes. You see AA, but decide that the value you pick up by calling him is less than the value you expect to gain by continuing to steal so you fold the best hand.

You've been stealing. The shortstack is sick of it. You have AA. Everything worked out the way you wanted it to, and you will win the hand. I don't see ANY value AT ALL folding here whatsoever....

Originally Posted by Pelion

There was also a weird tournament on saint patricks day where the "leprechaun" had messed up the prize pool so certain places paid very high.

e.g.

1=$50
2=$30
3=$20
4=$10
5=$40
6=$2.50


In this case, if there were 5 players left and I had a very short stack I can imagine pushinbg with AA and then mucking on the river after he turns his hand over and saying "awww you got me".

That is the weirdest thing I have ever heard of... That isn't even really poker with 5th place being more than 2nd.....

3 people left. You're horribly short stacked in a big MTT after taking a horrible beat and have 13K in chips with blinds at 20K/40K. The other two people have the exact same stack size and one goes AI ahead of you and the second person calls. Barring an unlikely split pot, one of them will go bust on this hand. The action is on you and you fold AA. You make a big jump in pay simply by staying out of the way. You're going to be a favorite if you call, but your chances diminish when two other players are going to the river with their hands, and even if you had called and won you would still only have around 1BB and would very likely still place 2nd anyways.

"Pelion wrote:

Also Sklansky gives an example where you are on the bubble bullying midstacks and steal up a huge stack, and a shortstack pushes. You see AA, but decide that the value you pick up by calling him is less than the value you expect to gain by continuing to steal so you fold the best hand.

You've been stealing. The shortstack is sick of it. You have AA. Everything worked out the way you wanted it to, and you will win the hand. I don't see ANY value AT ALL folding here whatsoever.... "

here's an example. SNG, 4 people left. You have 8000, two others have 4000, one other has 200. Blinds are 100/200. By knocking short stack out, you've successfully moved from 8000 to 8200... congrats. but, if you try to leave him in, you can continue to steal the blinds for potentially several more orbits, because the middle stacks won't want to get involved in anything until the tiny stack busts. so folding gets you more $$ and a better chance of winning than gaining just 200 more chips.

Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

3 people left. You're horribly short stacked in a big MTT after taking a horrible beat and have 13K in chips with blinds at 20K/40K. The other two people have the exact same stack size and one goes AI ahead of you and the second person calls. Barring an unlikely split pot, one of them will go bust on this hand. The action is on you and you fold AA. You make a big jump in pay simply by staying out of the way. You're going to be a favorite if you call, but your chances diminish when two other players are going to the river with their hands, and even if you had called and won you would still only have around 1BB and would very likely still place 2nd anyways.

Hmm, this makes me think. This seems to make sense to fold anything here, even if you did look down at AA. Nice point.

Originally Posted by Greedo017

here's an example. SNG, 4 people left. You have 8000, two others have 4000, one other has 200. Blinds are 100/200. By knocking short stack out, you've successfully moved from 8000 to 8200... congrats. but, if you try to leave him in, you can continue to steal the blinds for potentially several more orbits, because the middle stacks won't want to get involved in anything until the tiny stack busts. so folding gets you more $$ and a better chance of winning than gaining just 200 more chips.

I didn't assume a shortstack was considered almost a "non-existent" stack. I can see what you mean by this, but based on this example he is going to lose this hand anyway, so why give his chips (and the sb/bb/antes) to somebody else? If you're on the button this hand and fold, he will certainly get called by both the sb and bb so he has 1/3 chance to win.

"I didn't assume a shortstack was considered almost a "non-existent" stack. I can see what you mean by this, but based on this example he is going to lose this hand anyway, so why give his chips (and the sb/bb/antes) to somebody else? If you're on the button this hand and fold, he will certainly get called by both the sb and bb so he has 1/3 chance to win."

this situation is different if the tiny stack isn't immediately to your left, sorry for some reason I was just assuming that. the general idea applies to any situation where you have aces and you could either raise/call and knock out shortie, or fold and leave him in, however the situation arises. and, its not absolutely necessary he has only 200. he could have quite a bit more here and it would still make sense so long as all 3 people feel their best bet is folding into the money.

Originally Posted by Greedo017

this situation is different if the tiny stack isn't immediately to your left, sorry for some reason I was just assuming that. the general idea applies to any situation where you have aces and you could either raise/call and knock out shortie, or fold and leave him in, however the situation arises. and, its not absolutely necessary he has only 200. he could have quite a bit more here and it would still make sense so long as all 3 people feel their best bet is folding into the money.

Gotcha. I can see what you mean by this, but if you ask me folding AA would be very hard for me to do in this situation, just because it is AA, haha. But yes I can see what you mean, if he triples up to around 800 you can still pick on the mid stacks like crazy.

Originally Posted by givememyleg

Gotcha. I can see what you mean by this, but if you ask me folding AA would be very hard for me to do in this situation, just because it is AA, haha. But yes I can see what you mean, if he triples up to around 800 you can still pick on the mid stacks like crazy.

For the record ive never folded AA (even when I was chip leader against a 2BB shortie who pushed), and probably never will, but there are some situations where you "should".