Flush draws

I'm wondering how various players on this forum play post flop when you've got a decent hand such as top pair/top kicker and the flop comes 2 to a suit. I typically raise about 75% of the pot to make them pay for chasing their flush....that being said, many players will still chase a flush for that price. My dilemma comes with what to do when I have a strong hand, I raise on the flop, get called, and the flush draw is completed on the TURN.

If I'm playing against somebody tight who I don't think would have chased a flush, then I suppose I don't alter my play whatsoever. If I thought I had the best hand before, I still do now and bet accordingly.

But if I'm playing against somebody loose who chases hands, do I:

1. Check if it's on me first? This seems like hanging a big sign around my neck saying "Pot for sale". Checking seems like showing obvious fear of a possible flush. I could check, then reraise him if he bets to "find out where I am" and maybe fold out a bluff....but if he's determined to bluff hard and comes right back over the top of me with another raise what then?

2. Come out betting? If the guy has made his flush draw and he just calls, do I shut down on the river? I guess my concern here is this....I DON'T want to reward people for chasing their flush and hitting it. They are only going to hit it about one out of 4 times on the turn, yet if I keep betting large after it hits on the turn and river I may build the pot up just enough that it actually ends up justifying their chasing the flush in the first place.


I don't care about flush draws hitting on the river so much, it's when they hit on the turn and I have 2 more rounds of betting ahead of me that I worry about playing poorly/incorrectly.

How much do people bet on the flop to discourage flush draws, and how much does your betting style change after a flush draw is made on the turn? Do you shut down/bet less if the flush draw is made on the turn? Or do you just bet your hand once again (assuming the turn card is otherwise of no consequence other than it's suit)?

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I always bet about half of the pot with 2 suited cards on board, especially with possible str8 draw's as well. If u check then u are giving a free card and its a bad play, if they dont hit their card on 4th street and u come out betting then its too late. They are either gonna fold or call any undersized bet (28% of pot or below if my memory is correct [pot odds]). You've got to make people pay for their draw's.

I'd be careful against short stacked people tho...say the pot is 500 and they have 200 of their 400 chips left. If u bet 200/250 then they may think that an all in and pin their hopes on a draw is the best chance they are gonna get of doubling up. It still is the right play to put them in since they are still an underdog but still gotta remember its hard to bet out someone with no chips.

SpArKy

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I think he might be talking about ring (Cash) games.

Yes, I was talking about the ring games. I appreciate the feedback so far, but my real question is: How do you alter your betting if the scare card that completes the flush draw comes up on the turn?

Toasty, you mentioned that by betting half of the pot you do not give proper pot odds for chasing a flush draw. While this LOOKS true on the surface, don't forget that there's such a thing as implied odds. If you continue to build the pot on the turn/river, you could make it worth his while to chase the flush. I always bet the same % of the pot when I bet (a lot of players believe in that, as it doesn't tip off the strength of your hand). Let's use a sample hand to demonstrate:

You're dealt AQo in early position. You limp.

Flop:

As Qs 2d

There's $4 in the pot. You bet 2$ to protect your hand. One caller. He had paid 2$ to chase his flush, remember this. Pot's up to 8$.


Turn: 5s

Now what? I still have high two pair, so if I bet 50% of the pot again, it's 4$ more. He calls, since he's made his flush. Pot's up to 16$.

River: 7h

Well, I still have top 2 pair. If I bet it again, I've pretty much paid him off for chasing that flush. It cost him $2, he's already made $10 more off of the hand by chasing ($4 that was in the pot on the flop, +$2 for your flop raise, +$4 for your turn raise, + whatever your value bet is on the river). And that's just if you don't call his river re-raise!

So if I flush draw completing card comes on the turn and you have a solid hand before that, should you check it? If you get raised hard on the turn after you check should you fold? Is it worse to be passive and let people buy pots from you when you have a great hand or worse to be someone that's actually paying off the muffins who chase their darn flushes? Maybe I should start chasing flushes at least to the turn card when I think someone will keep betting into me if I hit it.

Btw, I usually bet 50% of the pot against a rainbow flop and 75% against a flush draw as a general rule. I do normally drop from 75% to 50% if a flush draw gets made on the turn, to try and reduce the damage in the above scenario.

Thoughts on the above example?

I'd also like people opinions on the inverse of this, if you limp in with connected suitors, and are drawing to something, do you like to bet? I usually give a small-medium sized bet, and hope not to get re-raised. Will only call a raise if it is small enough though.

Originally Posted by DrNoChance

Toasty, you mentioned that by betting half of the pot you do not give proper pot odds for chasing a flush draw.

To quote shaggy "It wasn't me"

I didn't try to advise as I havn't played ring games for a while, the other advice offered is for tournements and not very helpful for cash games.

IMO, I would bet the Pot on the Flop. This is where it diverses, it depends on amount of callers, pf action, player reads yada yada yada.

With the turn card bringing the Flush, I'd bet the same amount as I did on the flop (1/2 the pot, 1/3 if 2 callers). If it didn't i'd bet the pot again!!!

If someone comes back with a re-raise i'm folding, unless I have only a few $$ left then i'll call. I would love to call this small raise and check it down but there is no point calling the re-raise if im not willing to call my stack on the river.

With the exmaple of 2 pair I might call a small raise on the river hoping to hit my 4 outer for a FH, but It would have to be a small re-raise.

I would never check on the turn, unless I hit the flush and then i might still bet hoping to get a re-raise. Checking will only inspire someone to steal. Last time i done this someone said to me "As soon as you checked I knew it was mine".

Your biggest problem is you are OOP, a pot sized bet on the flop reduces the problem a little of chasers.

I havn't played ring for a while so I would take my advice with a pinch of salt, one of the better ring players can give a better answer.

xbones, I wouldn't raise small suited connectors unless its a semi bluff, they are poor man's cards and I think they should be played as such until they get some help.

You shouldn't have the same problem as the Doc because they shouldn't be played in early / middle position.

The higher ones are an easy fold to presure on the flop if you miss or only catch a little (3 flush / 3 straight).

Not sure of the odds you would need to continue with these but i'm sure its quite high.

On the flop- bet 1/2 to full pot size bet.

If Scare Card comes on turn and you are first to act you have to bet it again. Back off from the pot sized bet but not $.50 either. If you are raised, it depends on how big the raise is. If it is substantial, fold. If it is minimum raise maybe call. If you have 2 pair you can hit FH on river and crush the flush. Opponent may also be bluffing flush.

If you are smooth called on the turn, I would slow it down on the river.

Frankly, there is nothing that you can do to stop the "gamblers" from chasing a flush. The only thing you can do is bet to protect your hand after the flop.

The way I play it in a ring game..

On the flop, 75% to 100% of pot if I've got top pair nice kicker.

Now, if somebody is calling this huge bet, I'm about 98% sure he has a flush/straight draw or top pair, nice kicker (possibly nicer than mine). If he originally checked to me and now he is calling, I'm 100% sure he has flush or straight draw.

Flush/straight draw completed on the turn or river, I'm checking. If its a small bet to me, I'll call. Otherwise, I'll fold. I don't think its worth it to put down a small bet. I used to put down a feeler bet, but on party poker, a lot people play anything suited, and I've just got burned too many times by it.

Also, in the not-that-rare situation where a weak player called your flop bet with a weak hand like two overcards or Ax, I've found that these players are so weak that they won't capitalize on the fact that you're showing weakness by checking after the scare card comes down. They are happy just to check their way to a showdown.

My apologies Toasty, I did misquote you (SpArKy made the pot odds comment).

I really like Toasty's idea of betting on the turn if a scare card comes out, but just betting a smaller amount, such as:

Bet a little if a scare card hits, just not the usual 50%-100% of the pot. For example, I bet $2 on flop with $3 in the pot and get called, making the pot $7. On the turn, the scare card comes. I bet $2 again instead of the appropriate $4-5. A good player sees this as a sign of weakness, true...but mostly weaker players chase flushes and to a weaker player betting the same dollar amount again (even though it's less a % of the pot) might totally disguise your fear and keep them from bluffing at the pot where if you had checked even a weak player can smell enough fear that he might take a shot at it.

Perfect, perfect example of why I should follow my own advice. I"m playing as johnnyawe:

***** Hand History for Game 633966105 *****
0/0 TexasHTGameTable (NL) - Sat May 29 04:39:38 EDT 2004
Table Mother of pearl (Real Money) -- Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: mr_roqban ( $24)
Seat 2: kshark2 ( $22.25)
Seat 3: sierrakid ( $32.10)
Seat 4: archwayj ( $44.40)
Seat 5: diamondlil59 ( $27.20)
Seat 6: wedo2000 ( $58.05)
Seat 7: sanads ( $70.65)
Seat 8: DeadEye000 ( $24.15)
Seat 9: johnnyawe ( $51.65)
Seat 10: olive_fun ( $57.15)
mr_roqban posts small blind (0.25)
kshark2 posts big blind (0.50)
johnnyawe posts big blind + dead (0.75)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to johnnyawe [ 4h, As ]
sierrakid folds.
archwayj folds.
diamondlil59 folds.
wedo2000 folds.
sanads calls (0.50)
DeadEye000 folds.
johnnyawe checks.
olive_fun folds.
mr_roqban calls (0.25)
kshark2 checks.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Ac, 5c, 4s ]
mr_roqban checks.
kshark2 checks.
sanads checks.
johnnyawe bets (2)
mr_roqban folds.
kshark2 calls (2)
sanads calls (2)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 6c ]
kshark2 checks.
sanads checks.
johnnyawe bets (4)
kshark2 calls (4)
sanads raises (25) to 25
johnnyawe folds.
kshark2 calls (15.75)
kshark2 is all-In.
** Dealing River ** : [ 6s ]
Creating Main Pot with $49.20 with kshark2
** Summary **
Main Pot: $49.20 | Side Pot 1: $5.25 | Rake: $2.55
Board: [ Ac 5c 4s 6c 6s ]
mr_roqban balance $23.50, lost $0.50 (folded)
kshark2 balance $0, lost $22.25 [ 4c 9c ] [ a flush, ace high -- Ac,9c,6c,5c,4c ]
sierrakid balance $32.10, didn't bet (folded)
archwayj balance $44.40, didn't bet (folded)
diamondlil59 balance $27.20, didn't bet (folded)
wedo2000 balance $58.05, didn't bet (folded)
sanads balance $97.60, bet $27.50, collected $54.45, net +$26.95 [ Qc 3c ] [ a flush, ace high with queen kicker -- Ac,Qc,6c,5c,3c ]
DeadEye000 balance $24.15, didn't bet (folded)
johnnyawe balance $44.90, lost $6.75 (folded)
olive_fun balance $57.15, didn't bet (folded)

Sorry guys, but I'm now convinced that the feeler bet after a scare card is a horrible idea.

Well, I feel your pain, but keep in mind that you had 2 people chasing you there. They probably don't both have Aces, so you can count on at least one guy on a flush draw. I would have checked on the turn there too, instead of betting.

I think a feeler bet can be reasonable when you are heads up, as long as you keep the bet amount from getting too high (for example, just bet whatever you bet on the flop again, even though the pot is bigger).

With a multiway pot and a flush draw on board, I think you have to be ready to throw your hand away if the flush draw hits though.

Originally Posted by TheNatural

Sorry guys, but I'm now convinced that the feeler bet after a scare card is a horrible idea.

Not so sure, it set you up for an easy fold which sure beats losing your stack. Although with position, a better move might have been to just check there and see what happens. If you had, the river would have nailed the easy fold for you (since your 2nd pair would be no good.)

Another strategy here if you are playing against really good players and you have the top pair (aces in the above scenario) is to bet like you were on a flush draw (<= 30% of pot). If he is also on a flush draw he will likely call. If he has a pair he'll likely raise. If he raises and you call he'll think you are on a flush draw against bad pot odds. If the turn doesn't complete the flush he will try to push you around hard since he has you pegged on the wrong hand and figures his low/middle pair are good. You, of course, can push back harder.
If he raised you and the flush completes you can be pretty sure you are REPRESENTING the best hand and bet accordingly. Even better if he bitches at you for being a bad player and chasing the flush with bad pot odds after he folds.

The above only works when you are playing against people who understand and play pot odds. Also, I mostly play SNG tourneys so it may not work as well in money games.

Originally Posted by headhigh

Another strategy here if you are playing against really good players and you have the top pair (aces in the above scenario) is to bet like you were on a flush draw (<= 30% of pot). If he is also on a flush draw he will likely call. If he has a pair he'll likely raise. If he raises and you call he'll think you are on a flush draw against bad pot odds. If the turn doesn't complete the flush he will try to push you around hard since he has you pegged on the wrong hand and figures his low/middle pair are good. You, of course, can push back harder.
If he raised you and the flush completes you can be pretty sure you are REPRESENTING the best hand and bet accordingly. Even better if he bitches at you for being a bad player and chasing the flush with bad pot odds after he folds.

Though I can understand the helpfulness of confirming what your opponent has, aren't you kinda giving a card away? Isn't that small bet just like a check + information? Why don't you size your bet to chase out draws. If they fold, you know what they had AND you have the money. If they call and they get their draw, you just paid extra to know to fold (you could have found that out with a check just as easy).