Flopping Bottom Set in a Raised Pot

You are in MP with 6-6.
The 2 Villains have over 100x BB Stacks, as do you

1 limper(unknown) in front of you
you call with 6-6
Button (aggressive) raises 4x BB

Limper calls, as do you

Flop: K-7-6 rainbow

limper checks to you.

1). Do you bet, or let the aggressive villain possibly make a c-bet?
2). How much are you betting if you do decide to bet?
3). How do you play the rest of the hand if your bet gets called/ raised?

You said button is aggressive. I let him c-bet.

Then I minimum raise. I'll check the turn to check the strength of his hand. If he has a K, he'll probably throw out another bet. Ditto for if he's aggressive and he thinks you've just been 'testing' him on the flop.

I'm pretty much not letting this hand go. If he has KK or 77, well damn. But I'm damn well not going to lose value here by not attempting to get my chips in with teh best of it at least.

i will check to him 50% and bet a little over 1/2 pot 50% because if he is THAT aggro, he will reraise you enough to make this a good play. When he reraises, then i check to him for sure on teh turn planning to check/bomb it all in.

ensign_lee plays pokah?

you want to trap as much dead money as possible so you check, hope the limper calls the aggressive's c-bet (if he does c-bet) and then you call.
Playing the turn is more difficult because you have to hope button actually has somthing to bet again.

Whats all this checking the flop nonsense. He will suspect a strong hand by the river and you will lose a bet. By firing out a probe bet on the flop you are disguising your hand more. And if he is an aggressive one then he will raise back at you. The worst thing you can do with the best hand is check and give a free card. The best hand on the flop is not always the best hand at the river. Bet it out and let him raise. I suppose the only difficult part of this hand is what do you do if you bet, Villan raises and limper re-raises.

Originally Posted by vster

Whats all this checking the flop nonsense.

He will suspect a strong hand by the river and you will lose a bet.

in order for us to make money he must have a strong hand anyway

By firing out a probe bet on the flop you are disguising your hand more. And if he is an aggressive one then he will raise back at you.

against an aggro opp who will bet anyway should you check. how is betting into him better?? just coz he is aggro doesnt mean to say he will raise your bet, you are pushing aggro's out more often and missing out on extra bets.

The worst thing you can do with the best hand is check and give a free card. The best hand on the flop is not always the best hand at the river.

duh!! but whats the matter with a free card here?? again aggro opp is gonna bet 90% of the time.

Bet it out and let him raise.

will he raise every time? doubt it

I suppose the only difficult part of this hand is what do you do if you bet, Villan raises and limper re-raises.

check-minraising the flop should send off signals to him, and unless he's retarded he's probably slowing down. i'm usually always leading this out. if he has some sort of hand he's at least calling you, and if he has a big pair or an AK type hand, he's probably raising you. you lose a lot of money by checking here IMO.

a line i like is leading out, and when he raises smooth call his raise then check the turn. this is a fairly common line i see with weak hands, and almost always you'll get him to fire another barrel if you check to him on the turn.

this looks like an extremely easy flop lead. you have to expect that at least one of your opps will be calling the bet, most likely the aggro button. esp if he has any floating tendencies.

the button does not have to raise here for leading to be a good play. all he has to do is call. he will usually bet the turn when checked to, either with the K or as a bluff (floating). the only time he won't bet the turn with any regularity is if limper stays in on the flop. but then you can just bet and assume that at least one of them will have the K and give you more action.

btw, i like to bet a shade over 1/2 pot here as it will be small enough for villain to attempt to raise if he should choose, but it can also be called by a wide range of hands allowing opp to try to take it away on the turn.

of course it would be nice to know a lot more about the hand, and the players in it. all we know is that button is aggro, but not how or in what situations. we also don't know the stakes, which can greatly influence the decisions.

Yeah definitely lead. Weak- medium bet, hoping to get raised or at least called if he has air.

Minraise or 2.5x raise is not as bad as you think- villain on button will hastily call having had his ego damaged ("he was duped!") and might even suspect that you're making a play. He will slow down, or, if has a king and no brain, might raise it up. Who knows. check this one, and villain makes a flop bluff at it, but then gives up entirely. check-check-check-check-check-you show a river boat, table laughs at you.

In order to be deceptive, you must play your good hands and bad hands the same. Play them both strong. Don't try to trap every hand by letting others bet. If you set the pace and bluff enough (or get a rush of cards, both of which would generate action) you will get paid. Trapping usually sucks unless the blinds are high (when people bluff flops hard all goddam day), or you're got the deck locked up (flopped full house, few significant cards remain in play)

from 2 minutes ago:
i know its not exactly the same as the original example, but same principle

Full Tilt Poker Game #1939685147: Table Camden Rose - $0.50/$1 - No Limit Hold'em - 14:54:08 ET - 2007/03/07
Seat 1: jbull33 ($64.05)
Seat 2: YAN69 ($9.80)
Seat 3: cheezycool ($147.05)
Seat 4: thin lizzie ($121.50)
Seat 5: bator86 ($42.50)
Seat 6: vhpietil ($123.20)
Seat 7: TheSnake-28 ($145.85)
Seat 8: piggee ($92)
Seat 9: munch2280 ($103.65)
vhpietil posts the small blind of $0.50
TheSnake-28 posts the big blind of $1
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to cheezycool [8h 8d]
piggee folds
munch2280 folds
jbull33 folds
YAN69 folds
cheezycool raises to $3.50
thin lizzie calls $3.50
bator86 folds
vhpietil folds
TheSnake-28 folds
*** FLOP *** [8c Ts 5s]
cheezycool bets $3
thin lizzie raises to $9
cheezycool calls $6
*** TURN *** [8c Ts 5s] [As]
cheezycool bets $10
thin lizzie calls $10
*** RIVER *** [8c Ts 5s As] [7h]
cheezycool bets $30
thin lizzie calls $30
*** SHOW DOWN ***
cheezycool shows [8h 8d] (three of a kind, Eights)
thin lizzie mucks
cheezycool wins the pot ($103.50) with three of a kind, Eights
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $106.50 | Rake $3
Board: [8c Ts 5s As 7h]
Seat 1: jbull33 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: YAN69 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: cheezycool showed [8h 8d] and won ($103.50) with three of a kind, Eights
Seat 4: thin lizzie mucked [Ah Qs] - a pair of Aces
Seat 5: bator86 (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: vhpietil (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 7: TheSnake-28 (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 8: piggee didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: munch2280 didn't bet (folded)


i'm pretty sure if i check raised that flop i'm getting no action.
i also let the time bank run down a bit on the river to make it look like i might be making a move at the pot.

Originally Posted by beez

from 2 minutes ago:
i know its not exactly the same as the original example, but same principle

Full Tilt Poker Game #1939685147: Table Camden Rose - $0.50/$1 - No Limit Hold'em - 14:54:08 ET - 2007/03/07
Seat 1: jbull33 ($64.05)
Seat 2: YAN69 ($9.80)
Seat 3: cheezycool ($147.05)
Seat 4: thin lizzie ($121.50)
Seat 5: bator86 ($42.50)
Seat 6: vhpietil ($123.20)
Seat 7: TheSnake-28 ($145.85)
Seat 8: piggee ($92)
Seat 9: munch2280 ($103.65)
vhpietil posts the small blind of $0.50
TheSnake-28 posts the big blind of $1
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to cheezycool [8h 8d]
piggee folds
munch2280 folds
jbull33 folds
YAN69 folds
cheezycool raises to $3.50
thin lizzie calls $3.50
bator86 folds
vhpietil folds
TheSnake-28 folds
*** FLOP *** [8c Ts 5s]
cheezycool bets $3
thin lizzie raises to $9
cheezycool calls $6
*** TURN *** [8c Ts 5s] [As]
cheezycool bets $10
thin lizzie calls $10
*** RIVER *** [8c Ts 5s As] [7h]
cheezycool bets $30
thin lizzie calls $30
*** SHOW DOWN ***
cheezycool shows [8h 8d] (three of a kind, Eights)
thin lizzie mucks
cheezycool wins the pot ($103.50) with three of a kind, Eights
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $106.50 | Rake $3
Board: [8c Ts 5s As 7h]
Seat 1: jbull33 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: YAN69 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: cheezycool showed [8h 8d] and won ($103.50) with three of a kind, Eights
Seat 4: thin lizzie mucked [Ah Qs] - a pair of Aces
Seat 5: bator86 (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: vhpietil (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 7: TheSnake-28 (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 8: piggee didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: munch2280 didn't bet (folded)


i'm pretty sure if i check raised that flop i'm getting no action.
i also let the time bank run down a bit on the river to make it look like i might be making a move at the pot.

lol. This looks pretty bad to me.

care to elaborate on that instead of just saying LOL SUX! ?
i really dont see how the hand i posted was anything but standard.

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Originally Posted by beez

from 2 minutes ago:
i know its not exactly the same as the original example, but same principle

Full Tilt Poker Game #1939685147: Table Camden Rose - $0.50/$1 - No Limit Hold'em - 14:54:08 ET - 2007/03/07
Seat 1: jbull33 ($64.05)
Seat 2: YAN69 ($9.80)
Seat 3: cheezycool ($147.05)
Seat 4: thin lizzie ($121.50)
Seat 5: bator86 ($42.50)
Seat 6: vhpietil ($123.20)
Seat 7: TheSnake-28 ($145.85)
Seat 8: piggee ($92)
Seat 9: munch2280 ($103.65)
vhpietil posts the small blind of $0.50
TheSnake-28 posts the big blind of $1
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to cheezycool [8h 8d]
piggee folds
munch2280 folds
jbull33 folds
YAN69 folds
cheezycool raises to $3.50
thin lizzie calls $3.50
bator86 folds
vhpietil folds
TheSnake-28 folds
*** FLOP *** [8c Ts 5s]
cheezycool bets $3
thin lizzie raises to $9
cheezycool calls $6
*** TURN *** [8c Ts 5s] [As]
cheezycool bets $10
thin lizzie calls $10
*** RIVER *** [8c Ts 5s As] [7h]
cheezycool bets $30
thin lizzie calls $30
*** SHOW DOWN ***
cheezycool shows [8h 8d] (three of a kind, Eights)
thin lizzie mucks
cheezycool wins the pot ($103.50) with three of a kind, Eights
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $106.50 | Rake $3
Board: [8c Ts 5s As 7h]
Seat 1: jbull33 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: YAN69 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: cheezycool showed [8h 8d] and won ($103.50) with three of a kind, Eights
Seat 4: thin lizzie mucked [Ah Qs] - a pair of Aces
Seat 5: bator86 (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: vhpietil (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 7: TheSnake-28 (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 8: piggee didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: munch2280 didn't bet (folded)


i'm pretty sure if i check raised that flop i'm getting no action.
i also let the time bank run down a bit on the river to make it look like i might be making a move at the pot.

lol. This looks pretty bad to me.

I'm not a fan of this either. Your lead on the turn ASKED him to slow down. he raised you on the flop, so check to him and let him hang himself on the turn. Especially now that he's hit.

Any reads on villain? I check to villain unless he's shown the ability to check through streets with strong one pair hands. Check to him, and raise him up hard. He'll likely call the raise AND your strong river bet.

if the turn is anything but an ace i'm checking. again, i almost always check that turn and let him lead out again, but in this case i took a gamble in hoping he was floating with the ace and would pay me off. most 100nl's aren't laying down AK/AQ here and will pay me off on both the turn and river.

Originally Posted by beez

if the turn is anything but an ace i'm checking. again, i almost always check that turn and let him lead out again, but in this case i took a gamble in hoping he was floating with the ace and would pay me off. most 100nl's aren't laying down AK/AQ here and will pay me off on both the turn and river.

are you blindly mising the fact the flush draw completed and the flop play looks more like pot building than defense of a pair?

Im guessing if opp stacked off on river by pushing over your $30 bet you'd call with your set which makes me lol.
There is soo much wrong with how you played this hand, like c/c'ing with big hands instead of building big pots, badly underrepping the strength of your hand and making it obvious to anyone who watches your lines that you have a monster on the flop etc.

right. i'm sorry for not playing it exactly as you would have. i forgot that there is only one way to play every hand correctly, and thanks for making assumptions on what i would have done if something else had happened. i also forgot that every time a third card of a suit lands on the turn my opponent has a flush. he didnt push over me and i didnt stack off. glad to see you're on your period.

also i'm pretty sure i didn't check/call anywhere in that hand, and regarding your comment with it being obvious to anyone that i hit a monster on the flop, how would you have played it? reraise over his raise? yeah cause that's not obvious either or anything...

someone just got there face shit on...


but im in my period so you played it like shit asshole now learn how to play poker and im gonna talk violently to you so you get off these forums cause god forbid a poker forum is nice to other players trying to learn.


why make the competition better?


now leave here once and foreall youve been banished....

Originally Posted by beez

right. i'm sorry for not playing it exactly as you would have. i forgot that there is only one way to play every hand correctly, and thanks for making assumptions on what i would have done if something else had happened. i also forgot that every time a third card of a suit lands on the turn my opponent has a flush. he didnt push over me and i didnt stack off. glad to see you're on your period.

also i'm pretty sure i didn't check/call anywhere in that hand, and regarding your comment with it being obvious to anyone that i hit a monster on the flop, how would you have played it? reraise over his raise? yeah cause that's not obvious either or anything...

lol.
You seem to not understand some really basic and fundamental concepts. It is nt about how i would have played it, its about how you left a shitload of chips on the table and in the long run gave second best hands a really asy time of catching up and murdering you with implied odds.
and fwiw, if you bet 30 and he pushes are you calling?

<DELETE>


EDIT ( I thought we were still talking about the original post)

i understand well the concepts you're talking about, and i don't think it's fair for you to assume i don't based on one hand history. you don't know me, so don't get all high and mighty after looking at one hand i posted.

you still havent answered if yourecalling a river push.

I also commented on the fact that you bet $40, half of your stack, into a board where it seems according to the action your hand is very second best. Results are irrelevant, but you know its nice to think that if you had AA on this flop you wont bet $3 and call a raise, you'll pot it.

And if you think being told 'lol that looks horrible' is a person being high and mighty, it might be worth rethinking what that actually means.
Afterall you posted that betting $30 on the river was 'standard' not me.

all this being said, i normally check the turn. i've already said that's a better play and what i usually do. however i don't think leading the turn is "laughable," as you put it.

in reference to your high and mighty, i was referring to your comments later on telling me i don't understand fundamental concepts of the game, not your original 'lol.'

i'm calling a river push too. looking back i think i'm standing by my play. can you tell me what you would have done differently please? how is my hand likely second best?

apologies to the OP for somewhat hijacking this thread, i didn't mean for it to turn into this.

okay after reading this post miffed you did not realize what his hand history post meant.

his hand history was showing how leadings on the flop with a weak probe bet can easily get more money into the pot.

Regardless whether he pushes on the river or not, your hand is still a set. Very few players will re raise a probe bet on the flop with a flush draw and then smooth call if they hit on the turn, so once he calls on the turn I would see no reason to be alarmed.

Now why would you check the turn, I don't understand your logic. Im right along with beez here, anything card but an A falls i check here, but the A did fall. Replay the hand in your head, its very likely he will have A10 here after a 3.5 raise pre flop, and a raise on the flop. Now if he hits his two pair and you check the turn you could have cost yourself money. Regardless if he pushes on the river you make the decision at that time, at that point in the hand with his weak call on the turn i would not be alarmed of a flush. Everytime a board has 3 cards of the same suit i don't worry unless he gives me indictations that he has it.

Now you are wrong completely. Have a nice day

Originally Posted by very_sneaky

his hand history was showing how leadings on the flop with a weak probe bet can easily get more money into the pot.

Wrong. Do u c y?

Regardless whether he pushes on the river or not, your hand is still a set.

so fucking what? Do you alwasy call with the worst hand, just because your hand is a SET!!!!!!. LOL, tourny donk.

Very few players will re raise a probe bet on the flop with a flush draw and then smooth call if they hit on the turn, so once he calls on the turn I would see no reason to be alarmed.

So wrong in a aggressive cash game like full tilt.

Now you are wrong completely. Have a nice day

hmmmm, ok then. Obviously i am.

lol.
please play at my tables.
Also, go read some sklansky.
kthx

okay after reading this post miffed you did not realize what his hand history post meant

and i hate to be an asshole, but purleeease, what stakes are you playing?

w/e, i really didn't mean for it to turn into an argument like this. all i did was post a hand history and for some reason you laughed at it without giving any reasonable explanation. you really think he has a flush here more often than not? i'm not trying to argue here or get out of line but i really don't see how i should just assume my set is behind just because he called a turn bet. and i certainly dont think it's ridiculous to bet out the river like that, but what do i know.

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

you want to trap as much dead money as possible so you check, hope the limper calls the aggressive's c-bet

This is good advice.

The relatively dry texture of the flop, your position and your perception of button all speak in favor of checking. The fact that button is aggressive doesn't mean that he's less likely to fold if you bet. There is also a third guy in the pot which everybody seems to be ignoring except miffed.

I wanted to bring this thread alive again to ask a question

Miffed and larsmars are advocating a c/c on the flop. I am usually a leader - call a raise - c/r turn guy myself, but with some players (some good ones) advocating c/c i want to get some insight into this method for playing a set.

I am guessing that miffed and larsmars are thinking the c/c by the limper would be a K-x hand suspecting a bluff.

But, doesn't our overcall look quite strong on such a dry board?

And, how are we playing the turn? Do we lead, or expect the limper who c/c'ed the flop to make a 1/2-2/3PSB turn bet? Are we raising this?

Finally, if the limper folds and does not call (or raise), do we c/r the aggressor?

Some HH's where Hero c/c's with a flopped set would be appreciated.

I apologize in advance for asking so many questions in one post

Originally Posted by larsmars

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

you want to trap as much dead money as possible so you check, hope the limper calls the aggressive's c-bet

This is good advice.

The relatively dry texture of the flop, your position and your perception of button all speak in favor of checking. The fact that button is aggressive doesn't mean that he's less likely to fold if you bet. There is also a third guy in the pot which everybody seems to be ignoring except miffed.

I agree

Flop texture not mentioned enough on this one -- there are very few hands that beat us, here I advocate a check call. C/R defines your hand too much and makes for a slow-down. I would C/C and depending on what comes out next, lead for maybe 1/2 pot on turn if limper checks on turn or is out of pot. If limper leads I reraise the amount he raised. Hard to tell who is going to pay you off, aggro button or limper who may have hit 2p on turn.

On a more draw heavy board I'm definitely betting the flop.

You don't lead this flop, because you can trap dead money between yourself and the preflop raiser who C-bets more than average, and the turn card is very unlikely to hurt you. I thought this was obvious.

I guess I just don't understand why we feel the limper is more likely to call the agg. button's bet with us yet to act than he is to call our donk-bet when he gets to cap the action. especially if the button is obviously aggressive, since we could be planning to CR here with a lot of hands expecting the pf aggressor to bet.

I think in this situation if we lead the flop it looks more like a blockbet than real strength as a real hand should allow the agg button to bet and trap the limper between. but a draw, a med. strength K, or a med PP could all bet here hoping to reduce the field and freeze the agg player before he makes his standard bet.

this way it allows us to get more out of air (floater on the button who bets when checked to on turn) and possibly more out of a lone K. getting a single turn bet will more than make up for the lost flop call by the limper.

although I may be missing something. if I am wrong please tell me what it is so that I can learn.

Yeah, to everyone suggesting a check call line, whats your turn play and river play OOP. It seems like there are not really any good choices. Leading folds everything but a King, check call gives him the opportunity to check through, and the pot will be tiny, a check raise on the turn definately gives him chance to get away from his one pair hands...

Keys here:

- Rainbow, drawless board allows for a free card to be help villain without beating us.
- Multiway pot improves chances a free card helps villains
- Aggro button assures us of a pot building despite checking flop


You want aggro to feel like he's in the driver seat regardless of what he holds, considering everyone limped and he raised 4xbb. Also from he other limper's point of view, if he's hit, he's more likely to view Aggro as the threat in this hand than us if we check-call.

There's no way the button is checking the flop, I don't see how you think that -- he raised and was checked to on the button. There's a billion hands that go like this: Aggro person raises limpers 4x bb on button. Limpers check, button raises, limpers fold. Agg's EV+ play is to bet here, so we expect him to.

If nobody hit anything at all, we're giving a free card and allowing someone to improve into the pot. If someone did hit, we can still get our money on the turn, and by check-calling the flop they may overvalue their hand. If they flopped 2P, we're probably felting them on turn anyway, if they didn't flop a strong hand we give them a chance to improve without giving away our hand and still building a pot.

I definitely will end up leading on the turn 1/2 pot. If I get reraised, re-raise back and hope he pushes. If I'm simply called on turn, I probably value bet river.

Rather than all this, how do we feel about just 2/3ing the fucker on the flop and turn and pushing the river?

Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

You are in MP with 6-6.
The 2 Villains have over 100x BB Stacks, as do you

1 limper(unknown) in front of you
you call with 6-6
Button (aggressive) raises 4x BB

Limper calls, as do you

Flop: K-7-6 rainbow

limper checks to you.

1). Do you bet, or let the aggressive villain possibly make a c-bet?
2). How much are you betting if you do decide to bet?
3). How do you play the rest of the hand if your bet gets called/ raised?

i lead out 2/3 to 3/4 (prefer 2/3 with no draws, but i also lead out the same 3/4 when i have the draw) pot on flop, let him call. check/raise turn (i check, and sometimes c/r turn cards with draws, too).
if he raises me on flop, i may minraise back (if true maniac) or call (i RR all in if there's solid connectivity), but i still c/r the turn, and try to get it in there, hopefully his K pairs on the board.

whatever you do on the flop and turn, make it the same as what you do when YOU hit TP or when your AK whiffs. you cannot all of a sudden check a flop if you tend to lead oop with ragged boards (see it a lot). and you cannot c/r with only sets on the flop, etc.

your standard lines for cbetting, c/ring, waiting for the turn, etc, should be "designed" for this situation, so its not so easy to sniff out when you hit sets, flushes, and other monsters.

the only times i check this flop is when i am prepared to get away from the hand on the turn when the OEer hits and i get shown some aggression...cause i sure aint checkin' twice.

check and let the aggressor bet... the limper either folds or calls, if he calls good... if not oh well. i call the bet and see a turn card... and i hope it's a king, that way i would probably get some good action. I would definitely check raise the turn, my only concern would be a reraise on the turn... from then on out i simply check and call. the preflop raise could have been from kk, though not likely, it does happen sometimes... even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then!