Fish ratio at specific times of day?

Hi,

just wondering if anyone can tell me if you want to be a long term cash player, whether it is beneficial to play at certain times where the fish ratio would be at its peak. EG if Party had a peak of 50k players would there be more fish to others ratio than at at 25k? Or is it pretty much the same all the time.

thanks!

From my experience at paradise, it makes a great deal of difference. I would say Friday and Saturday nights loosest, other nights loose but not as loose. Daytime tight, but Saturday and Sunday days are closer to weeknights than weekdays. When I play SNGs, my daytime and nighttime strategies are completely different. Very aggressive during the day to take advantage of tight players, and value betting and play for showdown value at night to take advantage of too-loose calling stations. There are lots of weak players all the time, just different at different times of the day and week.

This is just my input, but maybe this will help.

First different sites have different fishiness at different time and different games. There are some general observations I've made, however, and here are some pointers on how to make your own evaluations.

You didn't say what you play. I don't know how to evaluate fishiness for limit games. I don't play them. But for NL Holdem you have 3 types of games: Ring (this only refers to full ring), SnG, and MTT's

SnG's and MTT's are very similar in how you measure fishiness quickly. You can go to a few sites or different stakes on your site right now and observe this. For SnG's and MTT's fishiness is measured by how fast people get knocked out. TYPICAL MTT's, for instance, lose half (or a little more) players Per Hour. If you're watching an MTT and it takes 80 minutes to cut the field in half, then it's not fishy. If it takes about an hour or a bit less than it's typical fishy. If it cuts in half in 40 minutes then it's a fishtank. the best indicator is the first hour. Because most people knock THEMSELVES out of a MTT in the first hour. So the more suicides you see the worse the field is overall.

The next question for MTT's is - how fishy do you want it. I know a lot of people who Play Ulitmate Bet - which is Less Fishy than most. But they like making more advanced moves against players who know how to fold. Others just want the field to collapse as quickly as possible, so they play somewhere like Pacific.

Next, SportsBetting sites with poker games can be alot fishier than standard poker sites, because you have cross-play. Someone wins on the baseball game and wants to relieve their boredom or excitement with Poker. These guys are free money.

(the next statement we'll say excludes present company) European players in general are fishier than US players. I think it's because there's alot more training and books and shows and websites available in English than say - Turkish, Polish, French, German, Russian, Ukranian, and Greek. The one exception is if you're playing someone from Thessoloniki Greece. They're all friends of Mannerboy and he has them playing pretty strong. Also european players tend to give LUCK a higher status than your typical TAG player will give.

Back to gauging game types.

SNG's - the same is true. Here I'm looking to see how many people get knocked off the table in the first 20 minutes. If it's 3 then it's a fish tank. Just compare. You'll see the difference. I stopped playing SNG's on party when I noticed it was taking 30 minutes before the FIRST player got knocked off the table. The logic here is the same as MTT's but you're looking at the first 20 minutes to get gauge whether you want to play there or not.

This brings us to our 2nd side-topic. Multi-tabling, site size and "pokertracker" type friendliness. Sites that let you play the most tables the easiest and are targets of alot of online playing tools like pokertracker, no hands holdem, and whatever other play automation tools there are out there (I don't use any of them so I don't know what's available) will be less fishy than sites that are CRAPPY in those terms. Pacific Poker, again, is super fishy because until recently they didn't offer multi-tabling At All. And you almost have to get an act of congress to get a hand history there. There are other similar sites like that, btw. You just have to find them.

So finally we have Ring games.

Here's AOK's quick guide to gauging ring games.

There are 2 main stats you want to watch. One is how many players are seeing the flop as a % of the players at the full table (this is for 9-10 player tables). The 2nd is the average pot size as a multiple of the big blind (xBB). You have to be careful about this 2nd stat, however, because some sites count UNCALLED BETS as part of the pot (which is BS). Watch the site, if the pot is $5 and someone makes a $4 bet which NO ONE CALLS and he drags the pot and they say he won a $9 pot, then you have to do your own pot size calculations to see what's what on that site. If they say he dragged a $5 pot then you can go off their published average pot size. Using those 2 criteria here's my quick guide. (this is not meant to be 100% accurate for every table on every site all the time. It's just a guideline!!!)

32-39% preflop and 12-18xBB average pot is a typical TAG table. This is a tight table where players know how to fold after the flop. There are techniques for playing this table, but they involve reads, position and selected agression. this is not what I would call a fishy table.

there's a transition zone here and then

42-48% preflop with 20BB+ average pot you're getting into the fishy zone. Players here are seeing way to many pots and playing way to far into the hand. They're paying off other players. Then you get superfishy with

45+% preflop and 25xBB and higher. You see these tables getting up to as high as 50XBB average pot size. This is a total fish tank. If you see a NL25 tables running tight and a NL100 table running these stats, then the NL100 table is actually more fishy than the NL25's. Now this is a table where the BEST CARDS ON THE RIVER are typically going to win this hand. You can't bluff much. But when you get quality cards you're going to get paid unless you get sucked out on. this is typical 19 hand territory.

Finally there is the nut hunting table.

40+% preflop callers but 12xBB or so average pot. This is alot of people paying cheap blinds over and over again with the goal of flopping nut type hands. If they don't hit the flop strong they fold quickly. You'll see this alot on higher buyin tables where players are looking for 1 big score.

one more note: anytime you see a really high xBB table there are great opportunities to go nut hunting. Counterplay is a good strategy here (or whatever your variation may be).

I hope this helps. You can find fishy tables at all times of the day at most stakes, you just have to look for them and know WHAT to look for.

The next question you need to ask yourself, however, is what table stats your game is best suited for. Some players are great at exploiting tight tables, others are better at nut hunting on hyper-agressive tables, etc. You always want to know the opportunities and dangers of your style of play vs different "fishiness". Even the fishiest tables (the high % high average pot size) are dangerous if you don't know how to play them.

good luck

Originally Posted by aokrongly

32-39% preflop and 12-18xBB average pot is a typical TAG table. This is a tight table where players know how to fold after the flop. There are techniques for playing this table, but they involve reads, position and selected agression. this is not what I would call a fishy table.

i don't know....32% is pretty fishy. plus, preflop stats aren't always a good indicator of how someone plays postflop. additionally, keep in mind that a table with a 20/10 average could be made up of all 20/10's, or it could be made up of five 30/0's and 5 15/15's. The only way to get a really good idea about a table is to play a few orbits there.

other than that, nice post!

play friday or saturday nights...nothing but drunk people....including me

Weekends around prime time in the US. Next question.

Originally Posted by aokrongly

European players in general are fishier than US players.

wtf?..

Originally Posted by jackvance

Originally Posted by aokrongly

European players in general are fishier than US players.

wtf?..

IT'S BECAUSE YOU DON'T SPEAK ENGLISH

i had to post louder so he would understand

prima seems fishier during the day(eastern US)

I say chaps. Steady on! We're part of the EU now don't you know!

On a more serious note, I doubt that people could call Scandinavia _that_ fishy. The last time I watched TV there seemed to be a lot of Norwegian and Swedish players on the tables. They weren't all bad.

J

From the UK and still fishy!

hey great post aokrongly, it was more than i was after.

I did a bit of research today on mirco NLs on party and found some interesting results. As a general rule up to 25NL during peak hour 7PM-10PM ( #50k-80k players) is when the pot size ratio to BBs are the highest, and is I would guess between 33-50% higher than it is now at 11Am (30k-40k) .

There are some other details though. During that peak hour any table worth getting onto has a waiting list of at least 3-4 and up to 6-7. So I'm not sure if the advantage that is on paper is that great in reality.

I find it changes from table to table as much as times or sites. I had 7 open last night and 2 were at 50% PF and 3 were under 25% PF at stars 10NL. At the 25 NL I had 3 open later and they change so fast from hand to hand depending on who leaves and who enters the game. Is there a way to keep the stats from accumulating too long? Any loose table dynamic can change but if your there for 2 hours the stats will not accuratley reflect the present table. I'm using gametime+

I also wanted to know. In the lobby stats, how many hands are they based on? How accurate are they. At 40% pre flop and big pot sizes people are going bust and leaving. I've had plenty of fish, smiley and telephones bust leave and get replaced by dice, rocks and eagles. The stats cannot accuratly reflect the new table image.

Originally Posted by jameseyb

On a more serious note, I doubt that people could call Scandinavia _that_ fishy.

They eat herring, don't they? Case closed.

The play has to get worse late in the evening (early morning) especially on weekends, right? (This would hold for the micro-stakes tables). The quality of play would have to start dropping around 1-4 am.

Flomo: Very, very funny.

FWIW: I've found that having everyone between 80-120bb is far better than a wide dispersion.

I've found that I make the easiest money in the US late evenings, but since that is like 5AM here in Norway (and Warpe, I don't eat fish, except online of course ) I usually settle for whatever is available whenever I feel like playing. I'd rather play for a lesser hourly rate at the time of my own choosing than stay up all night waiting for "prime time".

Originally Posted by jackvance

Originally Posted by aokrongly

European players in general are fishier than US players.

wtf?..

I said Present Company Excepted...

But this isn't some random comment. On sites I play that show country of origin (primarily fortune), there is a strong correlation between the # of US players on the table and the tightness of the table. Most people assoicate fishy play with loose play. You can go look at it if you want. It's there to see.

PRESENT COMPANY EXCEPTED.

Top stuff aok.

The sportsbetting SNG/MTT comments certainly ring true on my preferred site. Very fishy methinks. It must be, my ROI is around 50% (admittedly at micro stakes) over the last few months and I'm still learning.

The European Vs. US comment might well be true but it's difficult to tell as you get such a mix usually. Something I'll be keep an eye on in future though.

I've found that American hours are fishier than European hours. And I play both regularly.

Originally Posted by midas06

I've found that American hours are fishier than European hours. And I play both regularly.

I agree, but that could very well be because of the fact that there are more players in general during those hours.