First Tracked 5k hands $10NL

Howdy,

Im looking for some feedback on my first 5k hands. Im not too familiar with what I should be aiming for statswise. I know 5k isnt a large sample by any standards but is there anything I can learn to improve upon here?

First thing that jumps out is that theres a big gap between your VPIP and PFR. That probably means you're calling too much with hands you probably should be raising.

Should be about 50% of VPIP?

he means you should be raising preflop more, instead of just calling/limping

I get that

What should I be aiming for, 50% of the VPIP? Higher?

It's generally recommended that they be as close together as possible. Maybe something like 20/17.

This is not to say that this is the only way to be successful, but its a good start.

Also, don't focus too much on altering your play to get certain stats. Alter your play to improve your game and you'll see the stats change as you improve.

Originally Posted by Hawkfan79

Also, don't focus too much on altering your play to get certain stats. Alter your play to improve your game and you'll see the stats change as you improve.

This is a very good point, and something I've been guilty of in the past. The focus should be on making the right decision in every situation, irrespective of how much you've won/lost and what your stats are.

Think of it this way. I can limp 66 in the CO and continue if I hit a set on the flop, or I can raise 66 in the CO and c-bet regardless of if I hit a set. First way gives me one way to win (and only 1/8 times), second way gives me two ways to win and if I cbet 75% of the time I do that 6/8 times. Also when I hit my set its more hidden, whereas a limper (or limp/caller) who suddenly gets all aggressive is more transparent.

Likewise with pretty much any cards you play PF. Limping will generally only give you one way to win (at least until you get good at postflop poker) whereas raising gives you multiple ways WITH ANY HAND!

Also consider this. Lets say you're playing 10nl. If you limp the button and SB completes, you have a 0.30 pot. If they both check flop and you bluff bet you win .30. However if you raise to 0.35 on the button, the SB folds but the BB calls, you now have a 0.75 pot. Most villains fold to c-bets around 80% of the time, so 4 out of 5 times you c-bet 0.50 you win 0.75 ($3.0) and lose 0.5 once, for $2.50 profit. Thats $5 per 10 times you raise PF and c-bet. That completely disregards the times you actually hit something big when the BB doesnt fold and you play for a bigger pot. At 10nl, thats some pretty nice free money.

So as Hawkfan said, its less about aiming for specific stats, and more just generally its better poker to raise most hands you intend to play. My general feeling though, is that if theres more than 5 difference between the two, its probably not very optimal. So if you're playing 20% of the hands, you should be raising at least 15% of them.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Think of it this way. I can limp 66 in the CO and continue if I hit a set on the flop, or I can raise 66 in the CO and c-bet regardless of if I hit a set. First way gives me one way to win (and only 1/8 times), second way gives me two ways to win and if I cbet 75% of the time I do that 6/8 times. Also when I hit my set its more hidden, whereas a limper (or limp/caller) who suddenly gets all aggressive is more transparent.

Likewise with pretty much any cards you play PF. Limping will generally only give you one way to win (at least until you get good at postflop poker) whereas raising gives you multiple ways WITH ANY HAND!

Also consider this. Lets say you're playing 10nl. If you limp the button and SB completes, you have a 0.30 pot. If they both check flop and you bluff bet you win .30. However if you raise to 0.35 on the button, the SB folds but the BB calls, you now have a 0.75 pot. Most villains fold to c-bets around 80% of the time, so 4 out of 5 times you c-bet 0.50 you win 0.75 ($3.0) and lose 0.5 once, for $2.50 profit. Thats $5 per 10 times you raise PF and c-bet. That completely disregards the times you actually hit something big when the BB doesnt fold and you play for a bigger pot. At 10nl, thats some pretty nice free money.

So as Hawkfan said, its less about aiming for specific stats, and more just generally its better poker to raise most hands you intend to play. My general feeling though, is that if theres more than 5 difference between the two, its probably not very optimal. So if you're playing 20% of the hands, you should be raising at least 15% of them.

Dude, what you wrote there is pure gold

I've never before seen it put so simply and logically, or maybe I was always too arrogant to accept good advise when I got it. Something just clicked when I read this and I reckon your few paragraphs and my application of what it means will =$$$$ for me. Karma bucks coming your way

Ive just finished a 800 hand session, trying to raise a lot more than I have been. I found that not only was I winning bucketloads of pots with C-bets, but I was also playing better poker. It feels so much better being in charge of the hand than limp/calling with small pairs in MP. Not sure if it makes a difference but over the 800 hands I found my stats for flops seen were 16% rather than the usual 20-22%.

The general advise to aim to play better poker and not focus too much on the stats is noted and heeded also. I dont actually play to get certain stats but Im hoping as I progress I can use them to get an idea of how my game is coming on.

TYVMA

Originally Posted by Hawkfan79

It's generally recommended that they be as close together as possible.

I disagree with this. Button is too good to play fold or raise.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by Hawkfan79

It's generally recommended that they be as close together as possible.

I disagree with this. Button is too good to play fold or raise.

You are right.

However, I think that for the beginner who is working on his preflop game it helps to start with a raise or fold mentality (at least it was easier for me when I was beginning), then as they get more comfortable raising most of their hands preflop (rather than thinking keep it cheap until I hit) it'll be easy to figure out the spots that they just want to call.

Plus, for a poor hand reader like myself, raising helps me to define others' hands as they tend to play especially straightforward oop in bigger pots.

OP is what we in the business like to refer to as a nit. Yea he has some loose stats pre flop, but he is a folding machine. His non showdown money will be a huge spew if he was to look at it. He's putting money in the pot 22% or the time but only winning 37% WSF. He goes to showdown only 20% of the time and only 3 bets 2% of hands(AA, KK, AK or JJ+ and no AK)

Let's do the math on this. You put money in the pot (VP$P) 22.5% of the time. You win when seeing the flop (W$WSF)37% of those times. That's 8.3% of the hands. We can assume you aren't taking down many pots preflop since you are calling a ton and only raising 8%. Your Went to showdown is only 20% and you are winning only 50% of those.

So all in all out of 5367 hands.

You put money in the pot and risk your stack, 22.5% of the time (1207hands)
You win 37% of the flops you see (approx 400 hands assuming you win a few preflop)
you see a showdown with 80 hands and win with 40 hands


So out of 5367 hands you win $$ with 360 hands that see a flop and only 40 hands that go to showdown. If you want to win more, where do you think you could improve? I would start with looking at money earned At showdown, and non showdown. I personally think you are folding to many post flop hands and not taking the lead enough. I would tighten up pre flop and see less flops then all these numbers without playing a single postflop hand differently would improve. And by doing that you would put less money in the pot with hands you are folding on later streets.

Originally Posted by jyms

OP is what we in the business like to refer to as a nit. Yea he has some loose stats pre flop, but he is a folding machine. His non showdown money will be a huge spew if he was to look at it. He's putting money in the pot 22% or the time but only winning 37% WSF. He goes to showdown only 20% of the time and only 3 bets 2% of hands(AA, KK, AK or JJ+ and no AK)

Let's do the math on this. You put money in the pot (VP$P) 22.5% of the time. You win when seeing the flop (W$WSF)37% of those times. That's 8.3% of the hands. We can assume you aren't taking down many pots preflop since you are calling a ton and only raising 8%. Your Went to showdown is only 20% and you are winning only 50% of those.

So all in all out of 5367 hands.

You put money in the pot and risk your stack, 22.5% of the time (1207hands)
You win 37% of the flops you see (approx 400 hands assuming you win a few preflop)
you see a showdown with 80 hands and win with 40 hands


So out of 5367 hands you win $$ with 360 hands that see a flop and only 40 hands that go to showdown. If you want to win more, where do you think you could improve? I would start with looking at money earned At showdown, and non showdown. I personally think you are folding to many post flop hands and not taking the lead enough. I would tighten up pre flop and see less flops then all these numbers without playing a single postflop hand differently would improve. And by doing that you would put less money in the pot with hands you are folding on later streets.

Thats a wicked reply jyms, I always wondered what a nit was and now I know...its me!

Seriously though, youve given me food for thought and clear instructions on how to improve my game. Im going to take it all onboard and see if I cant raise the bar a bit (or a lot). I'll post my next 5 or 10k hands and maybe you can tell me what you think then. I know I wont be up to scratch by then but hopefully Ill be moving in the right direction.

I really apreciate yourself and other serious poker players taking the time to advise me on issues Im sure youve had put to you countless times before. Time=moneys so I owe ya
(Rubber cheques ok?)