Extracting more value

Hit the flush on turn, then monster on the river. Pretty darn sure I overbet. Is the goal here to bet smaller, say 1/2 pot to get opponent to call? I'm thinking he folds to almost any bet with 4 to the flush on board

$200 NL Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, November 29, 00:38:37 EDT 2005
Table Table 68450 (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: DLar0885 ( $49.05 )
Seat 3: Teletran1 ( $196 )
Seat 4: Dogz_Bollox1 ( $157.90 )
Seat 5: bigdaddydb ( $182.97 )
Seat 9: jc_smu ( $147.40 )
Seat 10: BBBill_92679 ( $150.30 )
Seat 7: BrewDevil27 ( $204.05 )
Seat 2: Feedmedag ( $165.40 )
Seat 6: bbuffalo1 ( $205.75 )
Seat 8: scootordie1 ( $198 )
bigdaddydb posts small blind [$1].
bbuffalo1 posts big blind [$2].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to BrewDevil27 [ Ts Js ]
BrewDevil27 calls [$2].
scootordie1 folds.
jc_smu folds.
BBBill_92679 calls [$2].
Feedmedag calls [$2].
Teletran1 folds.
Dogz_Bollox1 calls [$2].
bigdaddydb calls [$1].
bbuffalo1 checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ks, 8s, 4d ]
bigdaddydb checks.
bbuffalo1 checks.
BrewDevil27 bets [$7].
BBBill_92679 folds.
Feedmedag calls [$7].
Dogz_Bollox1 calls [$7].
bigdaddydb folds.
bbuffalo1 folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ Qs ]
BrewDevil27 bets [$20].
Feedmedag calls [$20].
Dogz_Bollox1 folds.
** Dealing River ** [ 9s ]
BrewDevil27 bets [$70].
Feedmedag folds.
BrewDevil27 does not show cards.
BrewDevil27 wins $140

I would try 1/2 and maybe entice him to reraise if he has the Ace. I think he had KQ possibly and would let it go regardless.

Only the ace is giving you money on this four flush board with your hand. I'd totally slow down and let him bet this for you hoping he bluffs.

Originally Posted by RubixConfused

Only the ace is giving you money on this four flush board with your hand. I'd totally slow down and let him bet this for you hoping he bluffs.

Do you think the As is going to fold if you push with your strait flush? If only the As is paying you off anyway, and lets just say 99% of the online poker community is not laying down the nut flush on an unpaired board, why is enticing a bluff better than pushing?

The highest possible spade someone can hold in their hand besides the As is the 7s...and you aren't going to entice a bluff from the 7s by checking. I like the over bet, just unfortunate that no one had the ace.

I love the river card, I move all in here. At this level the Ace of spades will call you 100% of the time.
Consider your holding in relation to the board, every spade between 8-king is in play, someone with 7 of spades or lower will not call any bet here, + they would not be in the pot at this point.

Only hand capable of calling is the ace of spades, and if someone has it you must take their entire stack, all in is the only play on the river here.

either check then hope for a bluff or try a bet for value, probably only a third of the pot.

Originally Posted by PokerPatNEU

Originally Posted by RubixConfused

Only the ace is giving you money on this four flush board with your hand. I'd totally slow down and let him bet this for you hoping he bluffs.

Do you think the As is going to fold if you push with your strait flush? If only the As is paying you off anyway, and lets just say 99% of the online poker community is not laying down the nut flush on an unpaired board, why is enticing a bluff better than pushing?

The highest possible spade someone can hold in their hand besides the As is the 7s...and you aren't going to entice a bluff from the 7s by checking. I like the over bet, just unfortunate that no one had the ace.

If you push only an ace calls this. I think Kx, 7s or lower, or a set lays down 95% of the time.

If you check and:
he has the Ace, he'll bet the river and then call your push.
he has Kx (KQ most likely), he might try a value bet or a semi bluff hoping the four flush missed you.
he has a slow played set, he might try a value bet or a semi bluff hoping the four flush missed you, especially if he has the 4s.

I'm just saying I think you'll get a bet by checking more significantly more often than the overbet works on this board. I'm clearly wrong if I'm underestimating the amount of people who think the overbet is a bluff and call with an drasticially inferior.

If you check and:
he has the Ace, he'll bet the river and then call your push.
he has Kx (KQ most likely), he might try a value bet or a semi bluff hoping the four flush missed you.
he has a slow played set, he might try a value bet or a semi bluff hoping the four flush missed you, especially if he has the 4s.

Why would any non-flush hand (2 pair, any set, etc) ever do anything but check behind on a 4-flushed board when last to act? No worse hand is calling. If he has KQ and you check to him, he is going to check behind.

Originally Posted by PokerPatNEU

If you check and:
he has the Ace, he'll bet the river and then call your push.
he has Kx (KQ most likely), he might try a value bet or a semi bluff hoping the four flush missed you.
he has a slow played set, he might try a value bet or a semi bluff hoping the four flush missed you, especially if he has the 4s.

Why would any non-flush hand (2 pair, any set, etc) ever do anything but check behind on a 4-flushed board when last to act? No worse hand is calling. If he has KQ and you check to him, he is going to check behind.

So what you're saying is they're much more likely to call an overbet than try to make one themselves? (We agree you're taking the ace of spades's stack regardless if you check or bet?)

I say bet only 20, the same as the hand before. It will result in the following

1) he has some kind of hand and calls making you an extra 20
2) he folds anyways cause he is scared and has nothing
3) he goes all in cause he has the ACE

In this senario you at worst make nothing more, most likely make an extra 20, or there is a slim chance you get his entire pot

Originally Posted by buttonAA

I say bet only 20, the same as the hand before. It will result in the following

1) he has some kind of hand and calls making you an extra 20
2) he folds anyways cause he is scared and has nothing
3) he goes all in cause he has the ACE

In this senario you at worst make nothing more, most likely make an extra 20, or there is a slim chance you get his entire pot

I think both you and Rubix are right. It depends on your image and his image. If you're tight and he's ultra aggro and likes to call to steal later, then you should check to him. He'll probably bet it90% of the time. It also gives you respect and he'll quit trying to steal from you when you check.

If the guy is a conservative player, you should just bet for value here. He has a hand and that's why he's calling you. He probably didn't like the fourth spade very much, unless he was slowplaying the nuts on the turn.

Originally Posted by rubixstreub

If you push only an ace calls this. I think Kx, 7s or lower, or a set lays down 95% of the time.

All-in might not the ideal bet, but it's hard to go too wrong with it.

People make too many horrible calls to think like this.

I would check the river and hope for a value bet in return. He isn't going to call much of any value bet of your own unless it's low and he has the K.

If you get any sort of bet on the river, raise 'em up.