Epiphany! With thanks to Spenda + Keith_MM

FAAAAAACK MEEEEEE... HEAAATERRRRR.

So, it all began when Spenda suggested we start tables, i'd like to know (or recall) why he suggested that (was it coz it draws in the fish?) but anywho, a chap called Keith_MM (hey dude) tried it out and posted this thread:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...nd-t84520.html

Gushing with masturbatory joy over winning approximately one bajillion buy-ins in just a couple of sessions. Hmmm, i thought, can it reeeally be true. Having, as you aaalll know, been on a shit breakeven stretch i decided to give it a try, along with the IMPORTANT advice of playing 10pm - 2am my local time.

At first it sucked, the table filled up with 3bet-light FREAKS. I swear within 10 hands i got 3bet about 4 times. Eff this, i thought, i'm STILL not finding my comfort zone. But after a while i noticed the people joining these tables, were something of the fuck tard variety, but just the riiiiight kind of fuck tard. Not the maniac, not the nit, but the kind who will call you down with the infamous....

2nd pair no kicker.

*hunched over old wench in a bleak misty wood*
"Legend has it of a method of table selection, where YOU start the table... and they shall come.... and they shall pay you off with second pair no kicker... profit will you hmmm?"

Another thanks to spenda and his lovely grinderschool vids. Slowly sinking in now. I made a couple of raises that i wouldn't normally have, i'd have just given up when i'd totally missed, but i knew they were chasing and had also missed, so i represented the flush on the river once or twice.

So i'm up four buy-ins almost. And my BR looks sweeter than ever.

So, conclusion as to why i think i've been getting shit results:

1. Some shakey poker foundations, they all add up
2. TIME OF DAY! i used to play during late afternoon local time or mid afternoon eastern US.
3. Start tables, the sharks and tags look for high % to flop, almost-full tables.

Cheers KEEF. I owe you a pint or summat.

Luls... Oh dem small sample sizes.

you should be able to pwn almost any 10nl reg on stars fwiw.

i enjoyed reading this post though.

If someone is 3bing light you might have to start 4bing them light back if they fold
or 4bing wide (AQ+, 88+) for value if they don't fold

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Luls... Oh dem small sample sizes.

well, you can say what you want about sample sizes but read that thread.

The point is that we (three of us now) noticed a difference in opponent.

Firstly, a lot of the people were buying in for weird ammounts like $2.34, this was a consistent thing and not sure what it meant other than: fish. Secondly after 40-80 hands i look up and all three tables have mainly green stats on (i make all my stats turn green when the numbers look fishy).

Read the thread... or... don't i don't mind $$$

So your going back to saying you were unable to find fish before?

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

So your going back to saying you were unable to find fish before?

dude, you know that even the micros are crawling with sharks

It wasn't straightforward. What i'm saying is, my method was:

Sort by number of players at table and $ in pot and % to flop. Go to the highest one.

e.g. 54% to flop, $0.90 av pot, 5 players.

There i would find somewhere between 0-3 proper fish. Usually one or two, and when i say fish, i mean players who are loose/passive. Calling you with anything and never raising. I'm not so good at exploiting tight players, all i do there is cbet and know where i stand if they show strength (this is all just condensed info so don't pick it apart). Anyway, often i'd look up after 30-40 hands and realise i'm sat at quite a tight table and a few hands later realise i've seen no action there.

AND. All the good players say: get off the table if there's not 2-3 fish there, right?

So i'd find them but few and far between at times, especially during the times i was playing.

Also, is it a coincidence that i've broke even for a month now and someone says: try this it's friggin awesome, and i try it and it works?

And remember, time of day also, this is important.

It raises the question for me: how much is poker about chasing fish and making a profit versus playing tough opponents to play challenging game? I feel the game has two priorities that push against eachother: making money (e.g. being a mutli table bot) and getting stuck into the challenge (e.g. playing fewer tables against a good few regs).

Thoughts.

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

you should be able to pwn almost any 10nl reg on stars fwiw.

i enjoyed reading this post though.

Explain? do you mean 'one' should be able to (as in people at my level) or me personally?

Originally Posted by wonderland

Sort by number of players at table and $ in pot and % to flop. Go to the highest one.

e.g. 54% to flop, $0.90 av pot, 5 players.

This is still a solid table selection strategy imo.

Originally Posted by wonderland

Also, is it a coincidence that i've broke even for a month now and someone says: try this it's friggin awesome, and i try it and it works?

It's more of a coincidence than you think, jumping to quick conclusions is something you seem susceptible to and it's not good for your game.

Originally Posted by wonderland

It raises the question for me: how much is poker about chasing fish and making a profit versus playing tough opponents to play challenging game? I feel the game has two priorities that push against eachother: making money (e.g. being a mutli table bot) and getting stuck into the challenge (e.g. playing fewer tables against a good few regs).

Thoughts.

What is your goal right now? That should answer your question. If it doesn't let me tell you: you can't make decent money grinding 10NL.

ok i'll go as far as to admit that it wasn't the longest try at something new. But i will say that the parameters for table selection seem to be improved. That's the least i can say.

I've just been so frustrated lately at constantly running bad, maybe it's throwing my judgement. And it has been mainly a running bad thing, when i look at the numerous spots i get into... but i've been there before, let's not go over old ground. Anyway, i'm gonna do this from now on and see if my wins continue.

My goals: short term is to build a nice roll, nice and steady (as much as poss, like a realistic build, not sky high and not bullshit breakeven) and at micro stakes with some time each day for study, this ought to happen. Long term is to know the game inside out. And there's a TON i don't know right now. I'm hoping that the grinding, the stake increments and the time/hands grow in tune with the study rather than being fucked at a tiny stake until i become a poker god, and then and only then can i expect to beat 5nl. lol.

Originally Posted by wonderland

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

you should be able to pwn almost any 10nl reg on stars fwiw.

i enjoyed reading this post though.

Explain? do you mean 'one' should be able to (as in people at my level) or me personally?

I would read that as "one" should be able to
Just learn some heads up, people at 50NL can't play HU well, much less NL10
like they raise 40% of their buttons or something stupid like that (which is too tight)

i was worried about HU play coz the only thing i know is that it's mathematically correct to raise at least 80% in position. But the table fills up very fast.

Watched a few grinderschool vids on it, there's one where spenda and another instructor called sugarnut play HU and they BOTH record the session so you can watch it from each of their perspectives separately.

Goes over my head though... range merging?? still, playing in position is the golden rule so i think that's enough of an advantage to know at these stakes... ?

Originally Posted by wonderland

Anyway, often i'd look up after 30-40 hands and realise i'm sat at quite a tight table and a few hands later realise i've seen no action there.

Bro, there's your problem. You can't play poker while looking down!

JOKES!

You might want to add Boog to the topic title for that one...

Originally Posted by BooG690

Originally Posted by wonderland

Anyway, often i'd look up after 30-40 hands and realise i'm sat at quite a tight table and a few hands later realise i've seen no action there.

Bro, there's your problem. You can't play poker while looking down!

JOKES!

LOL

Boog just said it, youve fixed your leaks. From now on start new tables, and stop looking down.

Just joking, nice to know you at least have a positive mindset now(dont lose it to your first bad beat). GL Wonderland.

[ ] ftr is your blog

Wonderland, you're OP cracks me up. Any time I login and I can't sit down at least 4 tables right away, I always start up a new one. And usually the fish are frequent. I was HU with some tard last night and he called down every street with ten high! Cha-ching.

Originally Posted by wonderland

It raises the question for me: how much is poker about chasing fish and making a profit versus playing tough opponents to play challenging game? I feel the game has two priorities that push against eachother: making money (e.g. being a mutli table bot) and getting stuck into the challenge (e.g. playing fewer tables against a good few regs).

Thoughts.

from my op thread a while back - i didn't bother posting the hands again - they're in my op if you're interested. Post 27th Feb.

Originally Posted by daven

I have been thinking about poker profits the last few days. A few things clicked while I was grinding a simple, short, standard, rainy saturday morning session.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan - Jan 2008

In a datamine of 100nl this month, guess what the stats were for the two biggest winners in the game? 12/10 and 12/6.

Originally Posted by fnord - Feb 2005

You under-estimate how much of your profit comes from players that suck worse than you and fail to seek them out.

I post three hands below from this session, all are against bad players who like to bet and bluff and slowplay and junk - but don't understand. I am not posting these as examples of hands well-played - the set in particular was interesting as I was convinced that UTG was flop re-raising his whole range, sb calling and then i get to shove, my read was wrong...

ok, am I getting at anything? I think so. I've not been too worried about profits the last few months - instead focusing on 'improving as a player' or 'learning to auto-pilot 16-tables x 4hrs'. Profits have arrived, but not fast (thanks bonuses and rakeback!)

I've also been getting carried away with reg-wars and 3/4/5 bet spots.

What the quotes above and the hands below show is that taking money from bad players isn't too hard if you do some basics right. Not losing much money to good players also isn't too difficult in Full Ring. This leads to something I often forget - minimising losses to bad players is key, cos someone else will soon take the dead money.

Time to go apply some newfound tolerance and simplicity to my game. About time, given that I'm only two months from being on the road again!!!

So to conclude, profit is normally derived or optimally derived from seeking out worse players than you while losing as little as possible to the bad players, and i will add: the terrible players.

Coz i think terrible players either give you all their chips or take all yours. There's little midde ground. I feel in some ways a terrible player can be as tricky as a highly skilled player. They call with 80% of hands (for example) so we can barely put them on anything, call all cbets, so we still can hardly put them on anything and you can see the danger (this was an example from last night). So i just wanted to add that in.

So yes, seek out the fish and i guess there's still tons of theory in learning how to exploit them the most and how to avoid losing to them. Maybe this is all stating the obvious though.

next step for wonderlands epiphany----> start seeing opportunities to exploit instead of "danger"