Doyle Brunson on Suited Connectors

what does everyone think of doyle brunson's view on any two cards to a straight-flush (except for the top and bottom)? In Super System 1 (I haven't read the 2nd) he seems to be willing to call raises all day long with hands like 96s and 74s. I know alot of ppl though who refuse to play these hands even if they just have to call the big blind. Thoughts on these types of hands anyone?

position play them only.

In NL ring, I play them the same way (almost everything Doyle says fits my style of NL ring play). For MTTs, especially with large blinds, things clearly change, but even still I'm at times willing to call with these hands (especially in the BB), as long as I have a comfortable / big stack and am against another big stack.

I basically consider hands like 96s, 86s, 74s, etc. to be suited connectors, and I play them all pretty similarly.

These type of hands really require skilled post flop play though. If you're not good at knowing when your 97s is most likely ahead on a rainbow flop of T72, you probably shouldn't be playing them too often, except in multiway pots where you're looking to flop two pair or better or a strong draw.

with these cards I always want to see the flop

if someone with close to your chip stack raises, you can call his raise with 68s, if the flop brings you a monster, your probably taking his stack ... if i remember correctly, thats how doyle puts it in SS/2

I'd rather call a raise with 89s, than AJ. It's the whole domination thing. Go in with something that's compatible with a different type of board, has a lot of possibilities, and is really easy to get away from. You call with AJ and an ace pops, your losing money to AK. I know I have a knack for the obvious here. The most important thing for me is to give myself the opportunity and motivation to escape when I'm beat.

Personally, I find it real hairy when your in late middle position with something like AJs in an unraised pot to you. You have to raise, and now the button is camping out with AA, and he's gonna smooth call your raise to trap you. Next thing you know the flop comes out A J 9, and your pounding the pot to chase out the potential Q 10 open ended. It gives me nightmares.

Originally Posted by Rondavu

I'd rather call a raise with 89s, than AJ. It's the whole domination thing. Go in with something that's compatible with a different type of board, has a lot of possibilities, and is really easy to get away from. You call with AJ and an ace pops, your losing money to AK. I know I have a knack for the obvious here. The most important thing for me is to give myself the opportunity and motivation to escape when I'm beat.

Personally, I find it real hairy when your in late middle position with something like AJs in an unraised pot to you. You have to raise, and now the button is camping out with AA, and he's gonna smooth call your raise to trap you. Next thing you know the flop comes out A J 9, and your pounding the pot to chase out the potential Q 10 open ended. It gives me nightmares.

The only difference for my play is that 89s are way more easy to fold after a bad flop

An important part of what Doyle Brunson talks about in SS1 is now easy it is to walk away from them. Flop comes and your 76s doesn't hit anything - unless you were the big pusher preflop he says to surrender the hand and walk away.

What's dangerous about what he lists as "Trouble Hands" is that they're hard to walk away from (KQo, KJo, JTo, etc.)

p.s. I love how online we're entitled to refer to a master of the game by his first name - like we've hung out with him for the past 10 years or something.

Originally Posted by Dunk

p.s. I love how online we're entitled to refer to a master of the game by his first name - like we've hung out with him for the past 10 years or something.

ya me and the texas dolly go way back... hell i remember when my 10's full of 4's beat his 10's full of 2's back in the summer of 1812 of the world series of draw 5 poker out west, one eyed jacks and suicide kings were jokers.

And just FYI, the SS 2 NL Hold 'Em section is almost identical to the SS 1 chapter.

Originally Posted by Brodie

And just FYI, the SS 2 NL Hold 'Em section is almost identical to the SS 1 chapter.

Ah, thanks. I won't bother picking up SS2 then.

To my great cheap-ass joy, the a nearby public library (Northboro, MA) apparently has a staff member that likes poker. There are about a dozen brand new poker books on the shelves, including SS1, SS2, HEAP, Theory of Poker, two Mike Caro books, Phil Helmuth's book, etc...

Originally Posted by Dunk

Ah, thanks. I won't bother picking up SS2 then.

Consider it if you play any Limit. Harman's (should I say "Jennifer's"?) section is excellent.

Originally Posted by Dunk

To my great cheap-ass joy, the a nearby public library (Northboro, MA) apparently has a staff member that likes poker. There are about a dozen brand new poker books on the shelves, including SS1, SS2, HEAP, Theory of Poker, two Mike Caro books, Phil Helmuth's book, etc...

libraries rule. especially yours, apparently. Mine pretty much only has Positively Fifth Street, which btw is a great read.

Now, for suited connectors...

I played all these when I started out, with so-so results. Could have been my overall lack of experience, but I've tightened up the requirements a bit and had better luck.

-I nix the two-gappers, except Q9
-One-gappers below 86 are junk
-No threes, no twos. 54, 65, 76 only when I know action will be 4way at least
-I don't like any of them in early position

As I've said elsewhere, Doyle gets away with some of those plays only because he commands the table. The action revolves around him. Should you find yourself in that state, feel free to loosen back up. Gamble, keep the momentum. But when you're not, it pays to be selective.

In particular, the reason for the min. 86 rule is that with the really little ones, you end up on the ugly side of a lot of straights. It's such a nice feeling being on the top end; I don't think you lose much by just letting others stress out about that stuff.

Originally Posted by Dunk

Originally Posted by Brodie

And just FYI, the SS 2 NL Hold 'Em section is almost identical to the SS 1 chapter.

Ah, thanks. I won't bother picking up SS2 then.

To my great cheap-ass joy, the a nearby public library (Northboro, MA) apparently has a staff member that likes poker. There are about a dozen brand new poker books on the shelves, including SS1, SS2, HEAP, Theory of Poker, two Mike Caro books, Phil Helmuth's book, etc...

Some of those like Helmuth's book are only worth checking out (if that... actually that book was pretty crappy). Some though you may as well just buy. Theory of Poker, Caro's book of tells, maybe SuperSystem (depending if you play other games than hold 'em) - those are books you'll want to have around as references and to later re-read. Go buy 'em, you won't regret it. Harrington on Hold 'em is well worth buying too, in my opinion. There's a lot of practical application of Sklansky, and the examples and structure are both first rate.

Also the depth of the stacks concern me, when you are playing cards with high implied odds, then make sure the players stacks are big enough to "make it worth it" when you do hit.

Suited connectors hit a made hand (2 pair or better) on the flop about 1 in 20 times. I mention this to tie in with ihategnomes's post...you want to be able to extract at least 20 times the amount you're betting to see the flop when you make a hand on it. That's part of why it's nice to have a lot of people in the pot before you - if it's only 1/6th the size of the pot to call, you don't have to have anyone call too huge a bet postflop for this to pay off (contrasting with a HU situation wherein your opp is unlikely to call a large enough bet to pay you off 20:1).

Not to mention the times when you have good position and folding equity. Ive been known to raise these for this purpose from time to time. Raising weakness is good.

Originally Posted by richardwe

with these cards I always want to see the flop

Always?

-'rilla

I think I might give these more of a shot for a couple days and see what happens. Maybe even try some one gappers..

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Originally Posted by richardwe

with these cards I always want to see the flop

Always?

-'rilla

yeah well a lot of times, I would call a really big bet or a couple of reraises. But When Im early position I often make quite a big bet myself to prefend other raisers. When Im in a late position Im willing to call the flop very often, I really love flushes!!

last weekend I was down 150 euro in a home game, I was delt Js4s in an early positon. I called the BB and a raise preflop. The flop brought me 2s 5s 10s. I checked and behind me someone doubled the pot I doubled it again and was called. By now I thought my opponent was holdin As and was waiting for another spades to fall. 5d was the turn I raised big he called, the river was the queen of hearts so I thought he didnt hit his cards, I betted the pot again and he called. He also had a flush holdin 4s 7s. Hehe I won 250 euro and was eryvery happy ;D

just to give an example of how I play suited cards (not only connectors) as said before the're easy to fold after the flop

You'll most likely miss the flop and waste all the money you put in preflop.

Consult the common flop odds sticky, where ever it is.

If you call every big raise and what not, you'd basically *need* to get all the money in every pot that you do hit.

Every time you flop a flush and everyone else misses and folds represents a huge -EV. Not just the EV of that hand, but all the money you lost making similar calls in the past that didn't work out.

My mind's all jumbled up. Can someone else cover this?

-'rilla

I found SS on NL to be dated. It's not bad... but it really gives I think the wrong impression on implied odds hands like suited connectors. If you read it, most people think he's saying RAISE, RAISE, RAISE with them... with no consideration to position. Dangerous...

Originally Posted by Dunk

To my great cheap-ass joy, the a nearby public library (Northboro, MA) apparently has a staff member that likes poker.

On your next trip, could you pick me up some Spicy Hunan Beef at Three Gorges in Westborough center?

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

Suited connectors hit a made hand (2 pair or better) on the flop about 1 in 20 times. I mention this to tie in with ihategnomes's post...you want to be able to extract at least 20 times the amount you're betting to see the flop when you make a hand on it. That's part of why it's nice to have a lot of people in the pot before you - if it's only 1/6th the size of the pot to call, you don't have to have anyone call too huge a bet postflop for this to pay off (contrasting with a HU situation wherein your opp is unlikely to call a large enough bet to pay you off 20:1).

What about hitting a solid draw - OESD or flush draw? Or a combo draw (flush + gutshot, or even straight flush draw)? These aren't made hands but they can still pay off handsomely if you make the draw. I like OESD's quite a bit; the implied odds can be very good against the right players.

Originally Posted by dalecooper

What about hitting a solid draw - OESD or flush draw?

Whether draws are going to work out depends on table texture. If your table is raising a lot, it's probably not going to be a easy to chase for them. If it's a passive table, then yes, you can probably modify that 20:1 to include times you play draws and catch...At best 10:1. In fact, the thread wherein I calculated the 5% for hitting a made hand resulted in a 10% for hitting a made hand OR making your draw if you play according to pot odds. Again, you need a table that's not going to be you out of your draws if you're playing for this...

Originally Posted by dalecooper

Or a combo draw (flush + gutshot, or even straight flush draw)?

Honestly, this isn't going to happen enough to noticeably affect your betting, IMO.

Originally Posted by dalecooper

These aren't made hands but they can still pay off handsomely if you make the draw. I like OESD's quite a bit; the implied odds can be very good against the right players.

Yes, they can against the right players. Against the wrong players, factoring this in and calling more can be expensive, however. And all of what we've said completely ignores the benefits of disguising your hand, something that certainly could affect how you play them (and arguably is why Doyle likes them so much).

Originally Posted by richardwe

When Im in a late position Im willing to call the flop very often, I really love flushes!!

I was delt Js4s in an early positon. I called the BB and a raise preflop...

I guarantee that over the long term, you're losing money playing like this. Calling for the price of the blinds in late position is usually okay, but in most cases, if there's a preflop bet, it's not worth playing. You miss the flop far more often than you hit it and if there is a bet infront of you you end up having to make back A LOT of money the times you do hit, which isn't going to be that likely.

Playing J4s in early position isn't just bad play - it's horrid. Your luck this weekend will only serve to reinforce your bad play. Try to avoid this. You're probably also playing a lot of other bad hands from the sound of this. Take a look at the starting hands articles on the front page. Generally you want cards to have at least two of the following criteria in order to even play them:

1. Being suited.
2. Being connected.
3. High cards.

Just having one isn't going to make a winning hand enough to be worth paying the price of the blinds. Playing too many hands will only get you in to trouble when you're starting out.

Originally Posted by richardwe

When Im in a late position Im willing to call the flop very often, I really love flushes!!

I don't see why. The implied odds generally suck because boards with 3 suited cards on them are difficult to hide. Get a baseball cap with an Extremely Large bill, and maybe you can sit and lean over the table in such a way that not everyone can see the cards very well, and maybe furthermore they will not pwn your annoying $#% for that $%@^

'Get a baseball cap with an Extremely Large bill, and maybe you can sit and lean over the table in such a way that not everyone can see the cards very well'

LMAO


'If you read it, most people think he's saying RAISE, RAISE, RAISE with them... with no consideration to position. '

They must not be actually reading it, because he mentions specifically playing cheap flops. Sure he'll raise with them sometimes, but I believe the statement he makes is that he raises with them mostly in spots where he'd raise with any two cards.

I'll limp usually from any position, call a raise on button or maybe from the blinds if there is already 1 caller. If I'm in the BB and say 4 people have limped and I'm lookng at a nice 67s... someones going to have to call at least two bets to win the pot. Obviously any sort of re raise activity and you're done with them.

Originally Posted by Rondavu

Personally, I find it real hairy when your in late middle position with something like AJs in an unraised pot to you. You have to raise, and now the button is camping out with AA, and he's gonna smooth call your raise to trap you. Next thing you know the flop comes out A J 9, and your pounding the pot to chase out the potential Q 10 open ended. It gives me nightmares.

That seems like an extraordinarily rare situation, since aces will generally reraise, and if flop top two pair in a raised pot and someone's lucky enough to make a set along with me, I'm paying it off pretty much everytime. I would be much more worried about someone flat calling with AQ or AK if I raised in mp with AJs. Also remember that you never have to raise, so you could just limp, as AJ plays much better in an unraised pot, from my experience.

Originally Posted by Rondavu

Personally, I find it real hairy when your in late middle position with something like AJs in an unraised pot to you. You have to raise, and now the button is camping out with AA, and he's gonna smooth call your raise to trap you. Next thing you know the flop comes out A J 9, and your pounding the pot to chase out the potential Q 10 open ended. It gives me nightmares.

If anything the best positions to have A-J are middle-late to late positions. This way you have a better sense of whether or not you're dominated before making the decision as to whether or not to raise.

I usually play short-handed, so I generally don't have to worry too much about domination when I'm holding A-J.

J4s shouldn't be played unless it's 3-handed or heads up unless you are owning the table and everyone is folding to you every time they don't hit the flop.

Your limps and raises cost you much more than the 250 euro you've won with this hand. Also, the times that you find yourself outflushed, you will lose another 100 euro back.

Originally Posted by drmcboy

They must not be actually reading it, because he mentions specifically playing cheap flops. Sure he'll raise with them sometimes, but I believe the statement he makes is that he raises with them mostly in spots where he'd raise with any two cards.

Ty that was I was saying, and yeah I know I call to many flops but the ppl Im playing are spending way more money preflop than I am. which makes my style ery profitable ( Won 800 euro last month)

Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp

I think I might give these more of a shot for a couple days and see what happens. Maybe even try some one gappers..

Watch yourself. I did this, and suddenly, I'm bleeding money. Opened up a gigantamous cavern of a hole in my game and now I've turned into a loose aggressive. I wasn't bad at it at first. I sensed weakness, and I raised and reraised their asses. Made about an extra $400 or so at a table full of loose passives Too bad people finally noticed and started owning me...and when I was at a table full of calling stations, they were too dumb to think about what I had.

So watch yourself. Unless you want to inadvertently become a LAG, I wouldn't try it too much.

Originally Posted by ensign_lee

Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp

I think I might give these more of a shot for a couple days and see what happens. Maybe even try some one gappers..

Watch yourself. I did this, and suddenly, I'm bleeding money. Opened up a gigantamous cavern of a hole in my game and now I've turned into a loose aggressive. I wasn't bad at it at first. I sensed weakness, and I raised and reraised their asses. Made about an extra $400 or so at a table full of loose passives Too bad people finally noticed and started owning me...and when I was at a table full of calling stations, they were too dumb to think about what I had.

So watch yourself. Unless you want to inadvertently become a LAG, I wouldn't try it too much.

I agree 110% - just imagine your outcome in any hand that you try this if at least one other player at the table has a pocket pair. - good luck

Well its been a few days of trying them out and I dont think ive hit one flop worth remembering with suited connectors. Playing shorthanded I win more money buying the pot with them in late position than ever making a real hand.

I dont see limping them in shorthanded ever being worthwhile - its either raise or fold for me. The chances that you + someone else hit enough to get them paid off in a shorthanded game seems slim to say the least.

I agree that Super/System is dangerous for inexpert players.

When i first started getting serious about learning to play i read S/S and came away from it seriously overvaluing suited connectors. I still do a bit.

Even in the intro to the section he says something like "these hands are the reason i play poker"...

anyway it took me a while to realise that they're only as good as he says if you are dominating the table or can get in a cheap flop.

they're only as good as he says if you are dominating the table

which is the point of SS, be the one dominating the table.

Originally Posted by Silent7

I agree that Super/System is dangerous for inexpert players.

When i first started getting serious about learning to play i read S/S and came away from it seriously overvaluing suited connectors. I still do a bit.

Even in the intro to the section he says something like "these hands are the reason i play poker"...

anyway it took me a while to realise that they're only as good as he says if you are dominating the table or can get in a cheap flop.

I've never read SS but I can tell you this - Mr. Brunson plays in games where the value of suited connectors is much different from the games most of us play, and I seriously doubt he's played at the low limits for 50 years. In games like he plays, the value of those hands lies in the ability to make plays with them, to outdraw a raiser, or for the deceptiveness of raising with them PF. In low limit games or in low buy-in NL games they can be very, very dangerous (though still effective if played correctly).

Resurrecting a slightly old thread, but i played this hand last night, and i thought it was a good example of what Brunson talks about.

To be honest, watching it again i am a bit scared by my post-flop re-re-raise, but i'd been playing semi-loose aggressive and raising a lot, seeing a lot of folds... so i expected a fold.

A lucky bad play, or a good odds win? I can't decide.

***** Hand History for Game 1919766471 *****
0/0 TEXASHTGAMETABLE (NL) - TUE APR 19 18:26:50 EDT 2005
Table Table 37193 (Real Money) -- Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: pressyoluck ( $33.25)
Seat 2: Flushbuster5 ( $16.65)
Seat 3: Bot_Number_1 ( $24.85)
Seat 4: Slimster003 ( $43.95)
Seat 5: Kowskie ( $24.05)
Seat 6: labsback ( $183.03)
Seat 7: billytalent1 ( $18.8)
Seat 8: Silentz7 ( $19.2)
Seat 9: SirTobbe ( $20.7)
Seat 10: opella ( $24.45)
Flushbuster5 posts small blind (0.1)
Bot_Number_1 posts big blind (0.25)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Silentz7 [ 8d, 9d ]
Slimster003 folds.
labsback calls (0.25)
billytalent1 raises (1) to 1
Silentz7 calls (1)
SirTobbe folds.
opella folds.
pressyoluck folds.
Flushbuster5 folds.
Bot_Number_1 folds.
labsback calls (0.75)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Ad, 7d, 3h ]
labsback bets (0.25)
billytalent1 raises (3) to 3
Silentz7 raises (8) to 8
labsback folds.
billytalent1 raises (14.8) to 17.8
billytalent1 is all-In.
Silentz7 calls (9.8)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 2d ]
** Dealing River ** : [ Th ]
Creating Main Pot with $37.25 with billytalent1
** Summary **
Main Pot: $37.25 | | Rake: $1.95
Board: [ Ad 7d 3h 2d Th ]
pressyoluck balance $33.25, didn't bet (folded)
Flushbuster5 balance $16.55, lost $0.1 (folded)
Bot_Number_1 balance $24.6, lost $0.25 (folded)
Slimster003 balance $43.95, didn't bet (folded)
Kowskie balance $24.05, sits out
labsback balance $181.78, lost $1.25 (folded)
billytalent1 balance $0, lost $18.8 [ Ks Ac ] [ a pair of aces -- Ac,Ad,Ks,Th,7d ]
Silentz7 balance $37.65, bet $18.8, collected $37.25, net +$18.45 [ 8d 9d ] [ a flush, ace high -- Ad,9d,8d,7d,2d ]
SirTobbe balance $20.7, didn't bet (folded)
opella balance $24.45, didn't bet (folded)

Here are few examples of suited conectors and 1 gappers how I play them and why they can be sooooo profitable.

***** Hand History for Game 1919156119 *****
$50 NL Hold'em - Tuesday, April 19, 15:59:30 EDT 2005
Table Table 36572 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 4: zeljo77 ( $64 )
Seat 6: Brass_Monkee ( $50 )
Seat 7: skylin1 ( $88.65 )
Seat 9: eightsinhole ( $33.45 )
Seat 1: daphantom13 ( $54.45 )
Seat 2: VPingu ( $43.85 )
Seat 3: Kongo_Totte ( $46.75 )
Seat 5: Allaninmn ( $31.39 )
Seat 8: JasonLade ( $23.3 )
Seat 10: MrMathGuy ( $49.5 )
Kongo_Totte posts small blind [$0.25].
zeljo77 posts big blind [$0.5].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to zeljo77 [ 4h 6h ]
Allaninmn folds.
Brass_Monkee folds.
>You have options at Table 36544 Table!.
skylin1 raises [$2].
JasonLade folds.
eightsinhole folds.
MrMathGuy folds.
daphantom13 folds.
VPingu folds.
Kongo_Totte folds.
zeljo77 calls [$1.5].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 6c, 6s, 9c ]
zeljo77 checks.
>You have options at Table 36791 Table!.
skylin1 bets [$4].
zeljo77 calls [$4].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Kd ]
zeljo77 checks.
skylin1 bets [$8].
zeljo77 raises [$16].
>You have options at Table 36791 Table!.
skylin1 calls [$8].
** Dealing River ** [ Ts ]
zeljo77 bets [$25].
skylin1 calls [$25].
zeljo77 shows [ 4h, 6h ] three of a kind, sixes.
skylin1 doesn't show [ Ks, Qd ] two pairs, kings and sixes.
zeljo77 wins $91.25 from the main pot with three of a kind, sixes.


Here is another when all cards a rags.

***** Hand History for Game 1918018642 *****
$50 NL Hold'em - Tuesday, April 19, 08:16:51 EDT 2005
Table Table 37380 (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 4: zeljo77 ( $44.85 )
Seat 10: Bigjohn451 ( $45.75 )
Seat 3: Vovka19 ( $47.45 )
Seat 6: Red_Memories ( $41.75 )
Seat 7: ISLES_R_BACK ( $47.75 )
Seat 5: jserio52 ( $46.25 )
Seat 1: drillmaster ( $47.89 )
Seat 8: Don_Mooch ( $18 )
Seat 9: lyvincent ( $34.3 )
Seat 2: gormis ( $30 )
jserio52 posts small blind [$0.25].
Red_Memories posts big blind [$0.5].
gormis posts big blind [$0.5].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to zeljo77 [ 5d 4d ]
ISLES_R_BACK raises [$3].
>You have options at Table 36854 Table!.
Don_Mooch folds.
lyvincent folds.
Bigjohn451 folds.
drillmaster folds.
gormis calls [$2.5].
Vovka19 folds.
zeljo77 calls [$3].
jserio52 folds.
Red_Memories folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 7c, 4s, 8h ]
>You have options at Table 36854 Table!.
ISLES_R_BACK bets [$4].
>You have options at Table 37323 Table!.
gormis folds.
zeljo77 raises [$8].
ISLES_R_BACK folds.
zeljo77 does not show cards.
zeljo77 wins $20.9

Ok, I changed my mind, I like SC's and one gappers now. I still usually just buy the pot more than I actually hit something but thats ok.

'I still usually just buy the pot more than I actually hit something but thats ok. '

This is the key thing that finally got through my head after reading SS again and reading through aggresive players like Ripp's posts... I was really down on poker, the bad beats were killing me, etc... and then after getting all this aggresive info I looked at my stats after a random SnG win.... 7/9 pots won at showdown, 37 won without showdown.

37

7

So... I won 37 pots, most of them with a hand since I was very tight back then, and besides me no one knew it. I realized I could have been playing blanks for those 37 hands and it would have made no difference (OK, maybe a small difference since someone else would have had a better chance to have the hand I bet, but you get the point).

Someone posted it here months ago, but I never got it until that day:

Whoever bets the most wins - the cards just break the ties.