Do you call the SB with junk at micro-level NL?

I play $0.15/$0.25 NL and PL, $25 max buy-in.

As calling the SB is only $0.10, I often call the SB, even with junk. If there are ANY raises before the flop I will fold with a junk hand. If everyone else is only calling the BB, it seems worthwhile calling, even if I have rubbish, just on the off chance of catching the winner.

Any thoughts on this, or am I just wasting money (a small amount admittedly)?

You'll waste a little every orbit, sure. Then you'll waste a lot when your hand hits and it's still beaten.

For example, let's say you have and complete the blinds.
Flop comes up . Sweet, you've hit your 2 pair, time to print some money!
Turn comes up :Qh:, river
You're now beaten by anyone holding a Q, 7, or any pocket pair except 3's and 4's. Joy.

I agree. Its not worth it. The chances of the 9 other people having worse hands than your junk is too low. Stay tight. Or at least tighter than that.

Originally Posted by CrunchyNuts

You'll waste a little every orbit, sure. Then you'll waste a lot when your hand hits and it's still beaten.

For example, let's say you have and complete the blinds.
Flop comes up . Sweet, you've hit your 2 pair, time to print some money!
Turn comes up :Qh:, river
You're now beaten by anyone holding a Q, 7, or any pocket pair except 3's and 4's. Joy.

that example makes no sense. you say that you might flop a good hand but people might draw out on you? if you shove on the flop it really doesnt matter the outcome. its a winning long term move.


however, i agree that you shouldnt complete with garbage.

Point being, if your garbage hits the flop well, you're still more vulnerable than usual. If you'd like to try to illustrate that with your own example that makes sense, please feel free.

like playing the Hammer (7,2).

I will limp in from the sb and if it hits great if it doesnt then it doesn't.

I think it is more important to let go of hands.

peace
wwonka
10 more days till vegas

With .15/.25 it is probably best to play every hand from the SB that is not raised. If it's .1/.25 instead than it's proper to fold a lot more hands, ~80% I'd say.

There are really only 2 criteria for this play. First, there must be several people who have already limped, second, that the person who is in the BB does not raise a lot preflop. Some people just won't let everyone limp, so watch out for this.

Assuming you meet both criteria for this table and hand, you should limp anything in the SB. Even 72o wins better than 5% against 9 random hands. You have to know what is good enough to stay in with though ... journey gave the example of flopping 2pair with 25. This is not good enough to stay in. I wouldn't call an all in or push with this flop. The chances of someone else catching a pair and the board pairing is too high.

In general, you want to catch 2pair or better or a 4 flush or an OESD to play past the flop with crappy starting cards. This being said, watch out for 2 particular situations here:

1: As in journey's example, you have 2 small cards that catch 2pair. If you have the bottom 2pair, you don't want to play unless you can play for cheap. If you can get to the turn and the board hasn't paired, you can think about it ... if you can get to the river cheap and the board hasn't paired and no one has shown high aggression, now is your time to put down a big bet. In general, the lower of your 2 pair should not be the lowest card on the board.

2: The sucker straight. Do not draw to the low side of a straight. Let's say you play J5o and flop 678. Fold to any bet. We are assuming here that several others are in to see the flop. Your out of the 4 may be good here, but you don't really have an OESD because the 9 is poisoned. If a 9 comes, any T beats you(and if a T comes, any 9 beats you). You may pull down the occassional nice pot with these hands, but you will lose too many huge pots for it to be worth it.

One additional point: playing low flushes. A flush is always a good hand. If you have a flush you are a huge favorite, even if it is a baby flush. But you have to know your table and opponents to play them. At some tables people respect a flush board too much, at others they don't respect it at all. If you are at a table and no one gives action when there is a flush board, you want to be very careful with a baby flush. Probably the only person calling or betting big has a bigger flush. But conversely, if the table doesn't respect flush boards and routinely bets into them without a flush, this is the time to put your chips in the pot.

At Low limit no limit holdem, one of your biggest edges is to play loose pre-flop in the blinds and in very late position. Pick your spots, and you will make a lot of money with these plays.

Hey now, journey was the guy ripping on my example =)

Dammit, quoted my sources wrong ... replace journey with 'crunchynuts'

Originally Posted by CrunchyNuts

You'll waste a little every orbit, sure. Then you'll waste a lot when your hand hits and it's still beaten.

For example, let's say you have and complete the blinds.
Flop comes up . Sweet, you've hit your 2 pair, time to print some money!
Turn comes up :Qh:, river
You're now beaten by anyone holding a Q, 7, or any pocket pair except 3's and 4's. Joy.

Just a little bit of my strategy...if this happens to me normally I bet the flop really hard in order to drive out anyone who hasn't hit anything (which they likely haven't) and take down the pot right there. Why even let people draw out when you have a low hand? Is this a bad strategy because it works for me.

I'd consider pushing a flop like that a semi-bluff. You're going to get caught sometimes, and when you do you'll lose big unless you hit your boat. Up to the stats to see if all the small winnings are worth the big loss, it might be.

Results aren't posted yet, but a similar example from a SnG:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=14100

Originally Posted by future_proof

I play $0.15/$0.25 NL and PL, $25 max buy-in.

As calling the SB is only $0.10, I often call the SB, even with junk

Surely the fact that its only $0.10 doesn't matter, its the ratio of BB to buy-in which is important?

So if your gonna do it at micro-limit then it should be done at all limits.

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

Originally Posted by future_proof

I play $0.15/$0.25 NL and PL, $25 max buy-in.

As calling the SB is only $0.10, I often call the SB, even with junk

Surely the fact that its only $0.10 doesn't matter, its the ratio of BB to buy-in which is important?

So if your gonna do it at micro-limit then it should be done at all limits.

Of course you're right; if I think like this at these low limits, then I should apply it as and when I move up the limits.

But I would temper this with Xanadu's comments - I only consider playing the SB with junk under certain conditions: with at least several players limp calling, and having a feel for the BB not raising pre-flop. If there are ANY pre-flop raises then I get the hell out of Dodge - there are half-chances and there are no-chances...

My experience with this play is not very successful, and even when I hit a pair, it is almost always the lowest pair, so deciding the correct path after the flop is very difficult - maybe the solution speaks for itself....

The fact that it is micro-limit matters only in that low limits are the only place you can use this as a big part of your strategy. At higher limits, it becomes rarer and rarer to find a passive enough table to pull this off. Usually in no limit one should very rarely limp ... it should be a raise/fold decision. At a table with many solid players, when you are in the SB, you will usually either be facing a raise, or everyone will have folded to you. Then you have to raise or fold because the BB is going to raise if you complete (so you really only complete as a trap).

If this strategy hasn't been working for you, you probably are playing too loose postflop, or haven't played enough hands to really know. My main strategy playing 10 and 25NL is to take people's stacks. I might lose .25-.50 10 times, but the 11th time make $20. Just remember ... you want to flop a MONSTER!! (or a draw to one)

What? Really? If I have 25 and the flop comes 257, what hands beat me? 77, 55, 22, 75. I don't think letting this go would be a good idea. You could take the pot down right now, or take the guy with A7 for a ride. As long as your comfortable with your ability to lay down hands like that to obvious strength, then isn't this flop +EV?

Yes, if you're able to lay this down in the right spots, it's good play. I know I have problems with such things, and I'm fairly sure most newer players do, especially at a passive table where strength is often concealed behind calls (like most micro tables are).

The example above of a 2-pair hand crumbling around you makes sense in its own context, but a) it's not likely to happen and b) betting hard on the flop (to little strength) is absolutely the right approach and will take down the majority of pots there and then. Even on the turn, the same is possible. And none of A2, A5 and A& (hands which are likely to stay in) will beat you.

So to all intents and purposes, all its saying is "if the board turns against you when you have a decent but not great hand, fold". Well, we knew that already.

Originally Posted by CrunchyNuts

You'll waste a little every orbit, sure. Then you'll waste a lot when your hand hits and it's still beaten.

For example, let's say you have and complete the blinds.
Flop comes up . Sweet, you've hit your 2 pair, time to print some money!
Turn comes up :Qh:, river
You're now beaten by anyone holding a Q, 7, or any pocket pair except 3's and 4's. Joy.

WRONG WRONG WRONG

This is like saying... Well i have ...

BUT THE FLOP MIGHT BE

OMG i need to fold!

Yes, bottom 2 pair isn't a monster favorite to the overpair, but you are still far ahead. If the board pairs, you need to make the non-fish move and FOLD. I am sorry, but I hear this all the time and it is so incorrect.


To the original poster - Yes, almost every hand is worth the .10. YES it does matter the stakes. At 1/2 and up the SB is exactly half the BB, where at micro limits it sometimes is 60%. This increases your pot odds more then you might think.

okay I kinda skimmed through this so forgive me if it was said in this post, but i read somewhere on here last night before i went to sleep...BUT it may seem like only .15 more to call right now, but 100 sb's from now you're down 15 bucks. obviously, you will probably hit something from your sb in 100 hands, but it's not worth it, just like if you're holding rags from the bb and sum1 min raises, do you call it? i tend to look at it in a situation like that.

Odds you're getting on this, assuming say 6 limpers, would be .10 : 1.9 or 1:19
Assuming the same limpers in a 1/2 game, you get 1:15...not too drastically different (5% vs 6.25%)

Well, let's have a math look at a similar (but much better) hand, 54o. Odds courtosy of http://www.pokerstove.com/analysis/unsuited.php

Chance of making two pair or better off the flop: 3.80%
Chance of making strong drawing hand off the flop: 11.02%

Assuming (and these are big), that two pair+ and a hit draw will win the pot, and you have 35% chance to hit the draw, you're running at 3.8% + 3.857% = 7.657%, which is callable in either situation.
Adding in the chance that two pair+ or a hit draw won't win bring things down signifigantly, as would the money lost chasing the draw. Of course, the chance of hitting a strong draw on 25o is almost nil, so calling that's likely more around 4% assuming two pair+ wins, which you still do not have odds on.

"You'll waste a little every orbit, sure. Then you'll waste a lot when your hand hits and it's still beaten. "

Amen. I have tightened up in the small blind and it has plugged a leak in my game. It's not so much the little waste seeing the flop, and definitely not the rare occasions where you flop a great hand like 2pair, as the number of times you'll hit a marginal hand that you are forced to play.

E.g. I limp in the little blind with Q-6 and the flop comes 5-7-Q. Sometimes you can lay this down if there's lots of action but many times you'll find yourself taking it to the river and losing with your bad kicker. Another one is limping with cards 8-4 suited and hitting a flush draw. Great, you make your flush! Aw, you got beaten by a bigger flush.

I lost more money than I won on these kinds of hands before actually going back to Sklansky's advice about preflop play in the little blind - play only what you'd also play from late position. Now, he does recommed playing any 2 suited cards in the little blind but I am not so sure about that. He probably knows better than me though

Originally Posted by dodgerfan29

okay I kinda skimmed through this so forgive me if it was said in this post, but i read somewhere on here last night before i went to sleep...BUT it may seem like only .15 more to call right now, but 100 sb's from now you're down 15 bucks. obviously, you will probably hit something from your sb in 100 hands, but it's not worth it, just like if you're holding rags from the bb and sum1 min raises, do you call it? i tend to look at it in a situation like that.

Just trying to look at this a bit deeper: It's $0.10 to call, so 100 hands will cost me $10. Now if there are ANY raises previous to my turn then I'm folding, so those hands don't count. If the BB min raises then I'm folding as well, so those hands do count.

The average pot at this level is approx. $3.00, so I would need to win about 5% of pots to make this play profitable. Is this likely?

Originally Posted by future_proof

The average pot at this level is approx. $3.00, so I would need to win about 5% of pots to make this play profitable. Is this likely?

With 56o, it's narrow (as shown above), with anything worse, no way. And that's assuming this sort of hand hitting would produce an average pot, which I'm sceptical of.

It's important to note that there are many hands worse then 56o when we're talking about flopping something better then a pair. J6o is worse off.

Like I said before, it is ok to play almost any junk at one of these tables if the BB doesn't raise a lot. But you gotta know what is worth it to continue. Say 8 people limp and you are in the SB with 72o. go ahead and call if the BB doesn't raise much ... you are getting 17:1!! That's just pot odds, not implied odds. Remember this is no limit. If you play 72o in the SB, you want 22 on the flop minimum to continue. It's ok that 95-97% you are going to fold ... when you flop trips or better with the huge pot odds to start with ... you will make money. It may be very rare to flop that 22 or 77 or 227 on the flop, but it does happen often enough when you get good pot odds preflop to make money on it.

If you do flop only 2pair when playing crap from the SB, go all in... you are most probably a favorite ... get all the money in with a very vulnerable hand which is a favorite at the time ... do that and you will definitely win with these hands in the long run.

I'll limp in the SB with a lot of hands, it all depends. I don't like high card/low card hands, like K4, J2, etc. but I will limp with connectors 45 and up, suited or not, one-gappers suited or not, suited aces, and maybe suited K7 or better.