discussion for "some cut-out-and-keep pointers"

Great post, thanks biondino. Insta-sticky!

The nature of no-limit means that you can lose in one hand what you might have expected to win in the entire session (or more). That's how it goes; if you can't handle this, then move to limit - this isn't a snidey remark; it's important to know you have the fortitude to take the inevitable lost stacks.

This is a very important point to be rehashed. At the Micro stakes level. It is so easy to nickel & dime your way to an $18 stack on a $10NL table. Before you know it you have AA and some guy calls off his whole stack to chase a dream with J6Sooted and hits. Bye-bye stack. Protect your stack. You don't need to get their's every hand. At these stakes they are more than willing to give you all their money, just wait to have a monster and take it. At $10NL and even $25NL in alot of places, If the board has paired 5's, someone has trips or a full house becase they called your 5X BB raise with "an Ace", if the board has 3 to a suit, someone has the flush because they had 35 sooted, and they call your 5XBB + 1 after limping, because "they're soooooted". At these stakes, play the board, play their hand and above all protect that stack.

{split}

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

At $10NL and even $25NL in alot of places, If the board has paired 5's, someone has trips or a full house becase they called your 5X BB raise with "an Ace", if the board has 3 to a suit, someone has the flush because they had 35 sooted, and they call your 5XBB + 1 after limping, because "they're soooooted". At these stakes, play the board, play their hand and above all protect that stack.

i dont necessarily agree with this. I know this seems like the case when when you push AI with your set on a 3 flush board you are thinking, "no way he called that raise w/ suited trash", of course he flips over 73s and rakes the pot. ive seen it plenty and i know everyone else has. that being said, i think people give way too much credit to villains, especially at the microstakes, and give up on small-medium pots that are theirs for the taking. when these hands occur and you have been the aggressor, i think its better to keep pushing, and if villain pushed back then you can give up. Just because the 3 flush card falls on the river, take a stab at it and youll be suprised at the amount of times villains cave and you scoop a decent pot.

by the way, nice post biondino

Originally Posted by Bode-ist

Just because the 3 flush card falls on the river, take a stab at it and youll be suprised at the amount of times villains cave and you scoop a decent pot.

But at the same time dont be betting (hands with showdown value) when you are only called if beaten. If a third flushcard comes and you have your set then you dont want to "take a stab" and hope he folds. You value bet if you think hell still call with a pair, but you want him to call that bet. If you think he folds anything except a flush then its almost always correct to just check it down and scoop a decent sized pot.

Originally Posted by Pelion

Originally Posted by Bode-ist

Just because the 3 flush card falls on the river, take a stab at it and youll be suprised at the amount of times villains cave and you scoop a decent pot.

But at the same time dont be betting (hands with showdown value) when you are only called if beaten. If a third flushcard comes and you have your set then you dont want to "take a stab" and hope he folds. You value bet if you think hell still call with a pair, but you want him to call that bet. If you think he folds anything except a flush then its almost always correct to just check it down and scoop a decent sized pot.

yes. i really didnt clarify that. im talking about the times you have a decent TPTK/2 pair hand where you are pretty sure your ahead of villain and are trying to get value. what i was trying to say is that at the lowest stakes, villains will be willing to call down with their TPWK hands so dont always be scared by the FD coming in.

I have a small problem with this. At the stakes that Biondino is talking about, and the quality of play by Hero's, the flush is the first non 0 level thinking a beginner learns to recognize, it becomes the scare card that will make villians fold or play back if they complete. They all start playing any two suited, paying to see flops even when raised, and if the board had the draw, they stay in at all costs to catch. When we're talking about beginners, they need to learn to see what the board is representing and be aware that weeker players, at $2NL, $5NL and even $10NL, will draw to any two suited flush draws, no matter what you bet. Bet the hell out of them and don't stack off because "he couldn't have the Flush after calling those bets". My point isn't to fold it up because there is a completed draw, but to preserve the stack, and not drop 100BB because no A came and your holding KK. Yes value bet. But be wary about the draws, they will draw out at any price. Don't stack off was my point, not fold.

Play full ring (10-handed) for now. On these tables you will almost never be playing marginal hands - you need to be sure that your overall number of hands played (not including the big blind) is no more than 20%. Absolute minimum pre-flop raise percentage should be 5% - between 5 and 10 is ideal. Over 10 is probably unwise as your post-flop skills are unlikely to be well enough developed; under 5% and you're going to be letting too many drawing hands into the pot and not being paid off enough when you do hit decent hands.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...nl-t49839.html

If I run 20% into PS I get the following:
66+,A4s+,K8s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,A9o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo

If I run 5% Into PS I get the following:
88+,AJs+,KQs,AKo

so would it be safe to say that the OP is saying play the 20% hands above limped, and only raise with the subset 5% hands at a minimum.

I know that position is also going to play a factor, and I'm sure I will get more of an insight into positional specifics in other posts (including rentons starting hands post) but I'm just trying to get a handle on what the OP meant here, am I on the right tracks?

For you it's different slev.
Play no looser than 15-10, ever. Play 6-5 UTG and UTG+1 - that means folding AQ and 66.
oh, and stop over-valuing card combinations cos they're sooted

Ah ok thanks Daven much appreciated

Originally Posted by daven

For you it's different slev.
Play no looser than 15-10, ever. Play 6-5 UTG and UTG+1 - that means folding AQ and 66.
oh, and stop over-valuing card combinations cos they're sooted

I did this a year ago, and just playing this tight made me a winning player pretty much over night. It's cool. Almost every time you see a flop (when you're this nitty), you're ahead or you have some seriously playable equity. Makes flop/turn MUCH easier. Helps you learn some basic value betting and cbetting without the HUGE downside of being behind 70% of the time.

Thanks for the reassurance Robb, - I was down a couple of buyins in lighteneing quick time because I got into trouble with PPs in late position, since then I've decided to really tighten up now. In fact I just folded 10s in the SB to a raise and one caller, and it felt good. You've got to do whatever it takes to beat what ever stakes your playing right? And if that means being more of a rock than the cliff at the coast so be it.

Since i've tightened up things have already started to improve. I'm actually really enjoying folding at the moment, that Kenny Rodgers song comes into my head everytime i'm folding my low PP's etc... and I feel good knowing I'm playing a nice tight strategy

I'd call TT for set odds and fold my overpair to a lot of action

That was an awsome post on the micro limit NLHE stakes I agree fully on the 5xBB + 1BB per limper when your opening up at the $10 buy-in level . I also know that alot of donks at these levels will push all-in with any two paint cards so you may want to pay close attention to player your up against and watch what his push range is if anyone ever calls him down. But the 5x BB rasie should be enough to push alot of decent players off a drawing hand if they know what there doing. I also like the last sticky I read from AOK the one about playing like a professonal and getting up and leaving if your playing off emotions or on tilt becuase your more likely to make bad decsions when you play on tilt or paying on emotions becuase you just know someone bluffed you off a hand so you want to get them stop that it is not playing like a professional get it together and play positive EV hands or just get up and leave becuase your gonna get stacked if you don't.

Let's break it down even further - let's say we want to look at our stats with AA. Well, in 10k hands you can expect to be dealt AA forty-five times. But we've already discussed that TEN THOUSAND hands is a poor sample - so forty-five is an almost worthless one!

To illustrate: let's say that the first 44 of these hands return a BB/hand of 5 (which is about normal for a decent player). At $10NL, this equates to $44. Then, you receive AA on hand 45. You have a big stack - say $20, thanks to previous good play - and so does the villain. he pushes pre-flop - yes! - and you call gleefully. But this time, his QQ hits a Q on the river and he takes you down.

I dont get this straight.
Please correct me.

You're saying that when you're dealt AA pf you'll have 5bb/100 in NL cash game winrate over AA hands ONLY?

... OR.. what seems logical to me , you'll have a 5 bb rate over all 10k hands ....

also 5bb/100 means you won 500bb/ 10k hands at 10nl where bb=10cents ----> 500x0.1= 50$

please excuse me if im wrong here, im a losing player over 90k hands played at micro limits

Originally Posted by iopq

I'd call TT for set odds and fold my overpair to a lot of action

wow that's a retarded way to think
TT is strong enough to warrant peeling some flops even if you don't flop an overpair, you nit

Originally Posted by 3cent

1. You're saying that when you're dealt AA pf you'll have 5bb/100 in NL cash game winrate over AA hands ONLY?

2. also 5bb/100 means you won 500bb/ 10k hands at 10nl where bb=10cents ----> 500x0.1= 50$

1. I think he meant over the 45 AA hands

2. bb/100= big blinds/100 hands, BB= big bets/100 hands (with BB = 2x big blind)


Hope that helps.

I just wanted to bump this back up for the new folks out there... I am guilty of this myself and working on this leak. I see bad sessions and think I'm in trouble, when I know what I have learned so far is good...

This is a long, long road we are on, let's keep our eyes on the horizon, not the pebble in front of us.