Different betting approaches.

Hey all,

I've played poker on and off for several years but in the last few months have made my first real concerted effort to learn "the correct" way to play. I have found that I am having to "unlearn" some of my old habits but that the required mathematics I had to learn for my degree have served me well. Many of the statistical strategies were things that I knew or could have derived if I had actually thought of them that way, but getting beyond the "gut feeling" has really been my hardest habit to break.

Part of that "gut feeling" extended to how I bet. I didn't have a set betting pattern, if I thought I should bet a lot I just threw out what felt like "a lot". I know this can lead to predictability so I often tried to change it up to sew confusion. However, I've been reading up (both in print and on the web) on proper NL and Limit hold`em strategies and think I may have a point of confusion regarding betting.

I've seen in some posts people referencing betting #xBB as their betting method, in others I've seen 1/2 pot, pot, over pot etc, and I've also seen betting stack percentages. I was looking for some clarification on these, not when to do which, but what each related to?

#xBB I'm assuming is referring to Limit where you're just betting based on the big blind, however it sounded like this was also being applied in some NL games as well.

The 1/2 pot, pot, overpot seems much more abstract as this could crank up to phenomenal levels at the turn and river (and obviously only applies to NL).

The stack percentages makes sense, but seems unrelated to the game at hand other than from the standpoint of either "I only want to bet X% of my stack on this hand based on my confidence" or "I want to bet X% of HIS stack to force him all-in on a later street".

If someone could confirm or clarify my observations it would be really appreciated. Finally, in normal NL hold`em what method do you use? (elaboration on said method is more than welcome)

Thanks,

-Shaun

PS: fantastic site, best I've been to and I am excited to stick around.

The terms you describe apply mostly to NL. Betting pot, 1/2 pot or overbetting pot is all used to manipulate pot odds (if you don't understand pot odds do a search or maybe someone else will give you an example but I am too lazy). You want to stick around when you opponent lets you and you want to bet to ruin you opponents odds. Pot odds are also very important to limit but you have less control over them compared to limit.

#BB refers to you bet and raising amount. The industry standard is 3-4x's BB pre-flop with premium hands. The term #BB is used almost exclusively to describe pre-flop raises in NL and has no bearing in limit. The terms pot & overbet refer to post-flop bets and raises. You also want to raise the same #BB when you are stealing the blinds with what is not necessarily a premium hand.

When you hear people refer to "% of stacks" it is usually referring to tournament situation where if you lose your stack you go home. If you are on a big stack you may want to adjust the amount you bet or raise based on the % of your opponents stack in order to commit your opponent to the pot if he calls. This can apply when you have a great hand and want to knock out your opponent or when you are bluffing or semi-bluffing in order to put your opponet to a very big decision on the call. On the other hand, if you are on the short stack and a standard raise ie. 3xsBB is 1/3 of your stack, you may as well push AI because you are committed to the pot anyway and you may double up or fold out your opponents.

Conventional wisdom is that when you raise preflop whether it is with 74 or AA you should stay consistent at 3-4xs BB or whatever you like. The minimum raise in NL is pretty worthless and only used when you have a nut hand and don't care if everyone calls. Feel free to mix it up based on your "feeling" but be aware that an observant player will see your raise or bet is out of line and may not pay you off when you are strong or sense weakness and play back at you. You don't want to give away information based on varrying your bet size and you don't want to let players get the right price to draw by betting too little.

Hope this answered your question?

Originally Posted by Shauno

#xBB I'm assuming is referring to Limit where you're just betting based on the big blind, however it sounded like this was also being applied in some NL games as well.

This is just a relative size to bet for any hold 'em game, including no limit and pot limit. Since the buy-ins and blinds change so much from game to game, and since the pot can vary in size quite a bit before the flop depending on number of players, a lot of good players recommend bets based on the blinds. Some always raise 3XBB (this is very common) when they have good hole cards. Some will vary the raise depending on the number of limpers to get players out of the pot - the more limpers, the more number of big blinds you bet. A standard version of this would be 3XBB + 1 BB for each limper more than a certain number, say two.

Originally Posted by Shauno

The 1/2 pot, pot, overpot seems much more abstract as this could crank up to phenomenal levels at the turn and river (and obviously only applies to NL).

It can indeed crank up the heat, and it is used in no limit as well as pot limit. In fact I think it might come from pot limit, for obvious reasons. The idea of it is to give your drawing opponents bad pot odds to keep playing. If that means going nuts with pot-sized bets, so be it.

Originally Posted by Shauno

The stack percentages makes sense, but seems unrelated to the game at hand other than from the standpoint of either "I only want to bet X% of my stack on this hand based on my confidence" or "I want to bet X% of HIS stack to force him all-in on a later street".

The stack percentage mainly comes into play in tournaments, where the stack is all-important. Lose it and leave. If you get in a pot, or another player does, for a large % of your stack in a tournament, you may as well just go all in and hope. That's pot committment.

Thanks, that was what I was looking for. As I said before I have a pretty firm grasp of statistics from a mathematical standpoint so I'm grasping the pot odds and utilizing betting to manipulate those pretty easily.

The key differentiator that I wasn't catching on to was that the #BB betting was pre flop and the pot betting was post flop, that makes more sense now.

Two things I was also curious about then though:

1. When calcuating the pot odds or other statistics like implied odds etc, how does one take into account the cards that were dealt to the other players (or burned) that are now out of play? It seems that the way the odds are calculated is a slight misrepresentation of what would/could actually appear on the board, but I don't see any way around it from a statistical standpoint.

2. Is it really that standardized post flop that you simply would bet 1/2 pot, pot, or 2xpot etc? It just seems odd to me (partly due to my naivete I'm sure) I bet 4xBB in the blind so lets call that 16 for examples sake, get 2 callers, then on the flop still feel I have the best hand so now I'm betting > 50 to bet pot? I'm not sure I've ever bet like this unless I flopped the nuts and then it was a scramble for people to fold...

-Shaun

Originally Posted by Shauno

1. When calcuating the pot odds or other statistics like implied odds etc, how does one take into account the cards that were dealt to the other players (or burned) that are now out of play? It seems that the way the odds are calculated is a slight misrepresentation of what would/could actually appear on the board, but I don't see any way around it from a statistical standpoint.

You just assume that the odds are the same since you cannot know that they are out of play. You do need to take it into account if someone shows a card when folding or on a misdeal...

2. Is it really that standardized post flop that you simply would bet 1/2 pot, pot, or 2xpot etc? It just seems odd to me (partly due to my naivete I'm sure) I bet 4xBB in the blind so lets call that 16 for examples sake, get 2 callers, then on the flop still feel I have the best hand so now I'm betting > 50 to bet pot? I'm not sure I've ever bet like this unless I flopped the nuts and then it was a scramble for people to fold...

It may seem big but it is the only way to make your drawing opponents play incorrectly when they call. And when they do, you win in the long run. If they scramble to fold use that to your advantage, raise big post flop every pot until they catch on and start calling you with crap.

- sed

1. You calculate odds based on only the cards you see and don't see. After the flop there are 47 unseen cards. You don't discount your opponents cards or burn cards etc... There are a lot of charts that have this already calculated...see home page.

2. You need to have the balls and the bankroll to make that play.

Obviously if you have the nuts you are not trying to get people out or ruin their odds. On the contrary, you are trying to milk as much money as you can. So you slowplay, check raise, check to a later street and hope they catch up. Overall, with the nuts you want to bet as much as you think your opponent will call without scaring them off. At the same time, you want to be somewhat consistent in you betting and raising amount. If you always bet 1/2 or pot and all of a sudden swith to a minimum bet, bells will go off in my head.

Another consideration,is say you have the nuts and bet pot and everyone scrambles to fold and you show your hand. The next time you bet pot on top pair, weak kicker or a pure bluff, you can win the pot uncontested.

Long post ahead

Regarding betting half the pot, its relative to what the board is showing.

Lets use several examples of 1010

You're dealt 10d10c in position on the button. Everyone folds around to you and you put in a nice raise of 3xbb. You get no call from SB and BB re-raises you. You call.

Board comes 10s, 5c, 2d. There is no flush draw and the only straight draw is an open ended on 34 (He re-raised yuo with 3/4? He's got to be a very loose player (Even players who like small suited connectors tend to avoid 23 and 34)) Or an inside wheel for A/3 or A/4. This is a possibility if a player is playing these as suited cards, a re-raise is unlikely but given your relatively small raise he may have been re-raising you for information, so you can't rule that out. Even still, its an inside straight, giving him very minimal odds, pretty any bet you make is going to be higher than his pot odds. You have the nuts, at this point.

Your opponent checks. In this situation if you bet half of the pot you'd likely be driving him out and not getting money for your hand, the only way he would call is if he's a ceritifed maniac from playing 34 or calling with an inside straight.

If you were to bet in this situation 1/4 to 1/3 of the pot looking like a small bluff and he goes back over the top of you (he either thinks you're bluffing and is taking it as an insult) has a high pocket pair (Possible given his pf re-raise) If he doesnt' re-raise you he likely doesn't have the high pockets so you can probably discount that. If he does re-raise you take that pot down right now with a good ol' fashioned push. Its also possible your opponent is on draw with AQ or AK, you're not worried about those at all, he'd have to hit runner runner for a set or straight to have you even cringe.

If your opponent simply calls then you can put him on a straight draw, if a blank falls on the turn, turn up the heat, he's obviously not worried about pot odds, so at this point make him pay for that river or take the pot there. Playing it slow on the turn the only way you are gonig to get action on the river is if he hit, which at that point its going to be a hard hand to lay down so you either want to force a laydown or have him pay you off at 10-1 odds.

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Now the flop is 10h, 5h, 2c.

Your opponent checks, at this point you want to bet at least 50% of the pot to push out the flush and straights. You might not get paid off as a result, but you can't let him draw for free on a hand thats goign to be very hard for you to lay down.

If a heart does hit and he raises into you after an awful lot of checking, you make the laydown.

This is especially important outside of heads up, if five hands see the flop and it comes flush/straight draw, you *have to* put in a substantial raise.

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Now if the board comes 10h, 9h, 9c? You check "you have the deck crippled" The only way he's going to lay into you is if he has three remaining cards 10 (re-raising 10x?), 9 9 or if he has a monster pair. If he's on flush or straight draw you want him to hit his hand because thats the only way you're going to get paid off, and you'll likely get paid off big. In this situation you don't worryabout quads or the straight flush or the overcard pair hitting a set, in fact you should never worry about quads or the straight flush in a hand like this. People can play half their lives and land quads and the straight flush 30 times, the amount of times they faced a full house you might be able to count on a hand.